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Old February 13, 2013, 06:25 PM   #76
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I don't care for them but they don't suck. How can any pistol round truly suck?
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:26 PM   #77
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So bigger, usually faster and heavier so you are saying that the 40 S&W can provide an edge over the 9mm in capable hands?
What? No that's not what I'm saying at all. It usually ISN'T faster is what I said.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:34 PM   #78
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What? No that's not what I'm saying at all. It usually ISN'T faster is what I said.
But you are wrong about that. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for that. You are wrong in your own right.

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Old February 13, 2013, 06:40 PM   #79
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Its not a bad round. Just totally unneeded by me, as are 357mag, 10mm, 32 ACP and on and on. If it fits a niche you need or want...rock on.

9mm is the way to go although I do like 45.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:42 PM   #80
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It's very foolish to say any of the top shelf SD calibers "suck".

You just have to choose based on your favorite platform, dimensions, capacities, and budget. My overall favorite is 9mm, followed closely by .45, then .40 much further back.
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Old February 13, 2013, 06:44 PM   #81
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Edit: You know what, no, I'm not getting roped into a caliber war.
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:23 PM   #82
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Here is a video of a man shooting himself in the chest with a 44 magnum. He follows it up by shooting a man in the chest with a 308 WIN rifle who happens to be standing on one leg. Neither man moves a muscle (they do have some serious faith in the products though). I laugh when I hear knockdown power. If a 44 magnum and a 308 WIN can't "knock down" a man, a 9mm or 40SW sure can't. Heck, even a 45 ACP might not be able to do it.
The man was standing there knowing the shot was coming, and that type of vest spreads the impact over a wide area, and with padding underneath. The vest did what it was supposed to do in absorbing the impact.
To knock him down under those conditions you'd have to tackle him. You still seem to be seeing knockdown power as force applied over a wide area.

The reporter in the video I mentioned was wearing soft armor, no balistic plates or padding other than the kevlar itself. The bullet did not penetrate but its energy was transmitted to a much smaller area, with the result of him ending up on his backside.

It takes only 14 foot pounds of energy applied to the outside of the knee to put an average man down. It doesn't take much more than that applied from the front to dislocate or fracture the hip, yet each leg can support 300 pounds or more and will hold up to exerting 300 pounds of thrust far longer than any human could apply it.
A bullet that can transmit enough shock to a joint or vertabrae will put a man down, no matter who he is. A bullet that can't transmit that force with the same point of impact won't put a man down.
A bullet that can burrow into a bone or pass through it without breaking the bone is less likely to put a man down.
Its not purely a matter of ME, some rounds with the same or higher ME than a slower heavier bullet are less likely to put a man down.

As for recoil.
I've seen people get knocked on their backside the first time they fired a shotgun with no idea how hard it would kick. After that first time they never get off balance from recoil again.
No handgun recoil is going to apply force directly to the body, the hand and arm absorb that recoil.
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:30 PM   #83
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Edit: You know what, no, I'm not getting roped into a caliber war.
You started one! Then you began to equivocate.

Besides it's not a caliber war. Just a matter of fact.

Does the .357 mag. have an "edge" over the .38 Spl.? Meaning is it more powerful in general.

Does the 10 mm have an "edge" over the 40 S&W? Is it in general a more powerful round?

It's a simple question. The straight forward answer was stated many years ago and much earlier in this thread. Yes. The .357 Mag is more powerful than the 38 spl. The 40 S&W is more powerful than the 9mm. The 10mm more powerful than the 40S&W. Honest answer to straightforward questions.

Doesn't mean that the more powerful round is always the most useful or the best for all persons in all situations. But some rounds are more powerful than others and some loads more powerful than others. Objective fact.

150 years ago someone said select the most powerful round that you can shoot well out a gun fit to the job. Good advice and it still works.

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Old February 13, 2013, 08:27 PM   #84
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Besides it's not a caliber war. Just a matter of fact.
Indeed. You know what, you win.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:07 PM   #85
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The man was standing there knowing the shot was coming,
So knowing it is coming allows you to defy Force? That's pretty nifty, gonna go try that with a car.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:26 PM   #86
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Stopping power data clearly showed 45 superior.
Whose study might have shown this, and by what criteria did they prove it?
Ed Sanow & Evan Marshall.

Yes, I know these are often argued and refuted. I still liked the data methods at the time. I have forgotten why now.

A modern deep seeded study would be nice.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:40 PM   #87
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I see this thread getting closed soon. Caliber wars only last so long

So before it does, if the .40 sucks, does it have the potential to save your life, your family's life, your dogs life, cat, gf, neighbors, hamster, newborn, innocent citizen, gas station attendant, haha I don't care what it is. It doesn't suck, its preference guys!
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:44 PM   #88
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Knowing its coming and being ready for it lets you keep your balance even if you are standing on one leg.
Heres a U S soldier who did not know it was coming and his vest which is far more bulky than the one in the other video stopped the bullet, yet he ended up on the ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQi7iknSKy0
He recovered quickly but he did go down.
There are other similar clips, With the same pattern of being knocked down by a bullet strike, but with less information on whether the soldiers survived or where the bullet struck, so I don't feel comfortable linking to those.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:46 PM   #89
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Then that would seem to argue that it's not so much the force of the bullet but the shock of getting hit.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:51 PM   #90
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Yes.

When I turned 40, I suffered a mid-life crisis....
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:04 PM   #91
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They SUCK! Stop buying them, Stop buying ammo for them! I really mean this just STOP!
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:12 PM   #92
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Then that would seem to argue that it's not so much the force of the bullet but the shock of getting hit.
And the more force applied the greater the shock.
The less shock absorbed by a vest the greater the shock.
The less ready the person being shot the less able they are to maintain their balance.
You can knock a man over with a light push from the palm of your hand if he isn't expecting it, if he is expecting it you might not take him down with a tackle.

When you are standing on one foot awaiting a shock that you know is coming almost every muscle in your body is involved in micro movements to maintain your position, the brain and spine are fully attuned to keeping you upright with no other function on the menu.
When walking along unaware of an immediate threat its orders of magnitude easier to get knocked down.
I went over a cliff face once because a tiny red fox kit jumped out from under a bush a brushed my ankle as I took a step while walking along a steep game trail.
Very nearly bought the farm that day.

Its not like school boys tipping over a cow.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:19 PM   #93
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By the power invested in me by Nobody In Particular, I, RBid, Unspecial Poster at TFL.com, do hereby declare CHADIO to be the winner of the Great Caliber War Thread of The Last Couple Days.

/end thread
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:28 PM   #94
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And the more force applied the greater the shock.
Yes a force applied to an unstable part of the body that has more leverage, i.e. a knee or a head, can cause a loss of stability resulting in a fall. That's not the same as "knocking someone down" IMO.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:33 PM   #95
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My glock 27 was the only handgun I owned for a long time.. I think its a great caliber and gun.
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Old February 13, 2013, 11:06 PM   #96
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Yes a force applied to an unstable part of the body that has more leverage, i.e. a knee or a head, can cause a loss of stability resulting in a fall. That's not the same as "knocking someone down" IMO.
The guy who just hit the ground would feel differently about that.
The trooper in the video got hit in the chest and the bullet was stopped by the vest yet he still went down.
As I mentioned there are a number of similar videos with very similar results.
If hit by a bullet and they fall over because they've been hit, then by definition they have been knocked down.
If a lesser caliber bullet won't achieve the same effect then that lesser bullet has less knockdown power.

You may say that if you are well protected and aware that you are about to be shot , and the strike is to the center of the chest with thick ballistic plates absorbing the shock then you can more than likely keep your balance. But saying a person can not be knocked down by a bullet impact, under quite a few real world conditions when they are taken completely by suprise, would not be strictly true.

An example.
My older brother was a golden gloves boxer. he once asked me to punch him in the stomach as hard as I could. He off course was ready and braced. I hit him with no effect.
I then said lets try that with your shirt off. When he was pulling his t-shirt off over his head I unloaded on him and knocked him back several steps. He was bent double and white as a sheet.
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Old February 13, 2013, 11:10 PM   #97
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You may say that if you are well protected and aware that you are about to be shot , and the strike is to the center of the chest with thick ballistic plates absorbing the shock then you can more than likely keep your balance. But saying a person can not be knocked down by a bullet impact, under quite a few real world conditions when they are taken completely by suprise, would not be strictly true.
I'm done arguing semantics with you amigo, peace!
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Old February 13, 2013, 11:36 PM   #98
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Ed Sanow & Evan Marshall.
Ergh. For a couple of guys who never could furnish their raw data or a coherent methodology, their little study still gets some traction in the public consciousness.

Consider: the .45 ACP and .357 Magnum were, according to the study, the best manstoppers in law enforcement. This raises a second, pertinent question: who in LE was carrying guns in those chamberings when the study was done? The big two cartridges were 9mm and .38 Special, not .45 and .357.

The answer is, veteran officers and gunfighters. These were guys who had a strong attachment to specific guns, and who'd have jumped through a few hoops to get approval to carry them on duty.

I submit that the reason behind all those "one-shot stops" had far more to do with the guy behind the gun than the bullet it was firing.
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Old February 13, 2013, 11:58 PM   #99
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Tom Servo, I agree. They were skilled gun fighters with notches in their belts and as you said, it was the person behind the gun. ie: shot placement.

Which puts all these caliber discussions and debates to bed.


Sent from my phone...expect typos.
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Old February 14, 2013, 12:01 AM   #100
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The only thing I have against .40 is if someone claims its better.

The whole thing reminds me of a I Spy episode (though you have to go back some ways to remember that one!) Not space-squids so I think I am ok on this.

Robert Culp and Bills Cosby got into a big pistol fight with the bad guys in the Coliseum. Lots of shots fired, nothing happens. Bad guys get away

Now, for those who do not know, Culp carried a long barreled 45 Auto Rim in S&W (I am doing this from memory so.....)

Anyway, he looks at Cosby and says, I need to get a bigger gun.

Cosby says, huh, why?.

Culp says, I couldn't hit anything, I need a bigger gun.
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