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Old February 21, 2013, 05:24 PM   #1
Twmaster
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Trainers: How many of you are changing your ammo policies?

Many of the training facilities seem to frown on or outright ban reloaded ammo use during their classes.

While I understand the rational behind that, and considering the shortages on ammo, how many (if any) of you are loosening your requirements?

For example, I am scheduled to attend a class next month that tells me to bring 1000 rounds.

If I were to have to buy that ammo as factory new I'd not be able to attend. Both due to availability and cost. A recent trip to Cabela's had 18 boxes of PMC .45ACP on the shelf. Sale priced at $28.99 per 50!

Thankfully the instructor will allow me to bring my jacketed reloads. So between 8 boxes of Blazer and the remainder my reloads I am set for the course and practice up to the day of the course.

So, considering the current supplies shortage how many of you are making exceptions? How many are not? Why, or why not?

Thanks!
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Old February 21, 2013, 05:32 PM   #2
g.willikers
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Some of the training facility are welcoming .22s, now.
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Old February 21, 2013, 05:35 PM   #3
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I do MO Concealed Carry Classes which require a minimum of 140 rounds (70 each, revolver & auto) and in the past, I furnished a .22 revolver, .22 auto and ammo for anyone who wanted to use them. If this ammo situation doesn't level out soon, I'll start requiring that students furnish their own ammo.

If they are using centerfires, I don't mind at all if they use reloads. Heck, I used reloads through the 800 round NRA Police Firearms Instructor Development School.
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Old February 21, 2013, 06:50 PM   #4
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examples...

The indoor range in the metro area where I would go to for yearly re-quals(9x19mm) offers a discount to students if they bring their own ammunition. It must be inspected & allowed for range use. I used 2 boxes of Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP.
If any members want more details on the security/gun range please PM me.

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Old February 21, 2013, 08:32 PM   #5
kraigwy
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I'm only teaching a womens class right now, 4 ladies once a week. If they shoot 38s or 9mms I furnish the ammo. If they shoot 22s they have to furnish their own ammo.

When spring comes and I start doing CMP GSP Clinics, they are going to have to furnish their own ammo.
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Old February 22, 2013, 10:09 AM   #6
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i dont get the problem with reloads

why does it make a difference where they get the ammo from? The only reason I ever sell to students is if i get a good bulk purchase price - then i sell it to them at cost to help them out.

thats something I never agreed with with a lot of LE and Agencys - they require training in whatever your duty load is.

why?


i shoot whats cheap on the range - makes me no better or no worse. Maybe its an issue with the paper punching crew?

I can see why some would prefer fast frange if its a steel range but other than that......
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Old February 22, 2013, 10:51 AM   #7
ScottRiqui
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If it's a rental gun, issued gun or a loaner, and whoever owns it says "factory ammo only", that's their right and I'll respect it. I cringe a little when shoot with my FBI friend, and she's using the expensive Winchester Lawman ammo to kill paper, but the FBI won't allow her to use anything else in their guns, and they'll give her as much as she wants to practice with, on- or off-site, so she's not going to feel bad about using it.

But anyone who says I can't use reloads in *my* gun for recreational shooting or a training course is going to get the "hairy eyeball" and a "What's This Foolishness" look from me.
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Old February 22, 2013, 11:06 AM   #8
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When I said I furnish the ammo, I furnish reloads. Never had a complaint, they either use their guns, or if they don't have one they use mine.

I always have a variety of pistols/revolvers for them to try and use so they can make a judgment what what gun to get based on what works for them.

I furnish the ammo and I don't charge for the Safety/Defense classes. Most of the ladies in my class wouldn't be there it they had to pay for the class and ammo. They just couldn't afford it. Not to mention, its ammo is hard to find around here, you have to drive to Gillette, or Rapid City to find ammo (assuming they have it). Both towns are about 70-80 miles away.

You call them to check on ammo, spend $20 or more to get there only to find out the city folks already grabed up what they had.

No sir, reloads are no big problem around here.

I don't think SD should be a rich man's game.
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Old February 22, 2013, 11:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
i dont get the problem with reloads
I think the problem may be the instructor's perception that faulty ammo may delay the pace of the class, with too much time spent helping one or two students to stay with the program if their ammo is problematical.

That said, I have certainly used my own reloads when I've been the student, and have no issue with it with my own students. Ammo is just too scarce and expensive now, and can easily exceed the cost of tuition.

Rimfire guns certainly have a place in defensive training.

I am organizing a defensive carbine class, and will probably allow .22 conversion units or dedicated .22LR uppers for most of the class, the exception being malfunction drills, which will require the centerfire guns.

My opinion is that there really is not a meaningful difference between .22LR recoil and .223/5.56mm in a carbine, and training for longer ranges is not a factor since a defensive shooting beyond 15-25 yards would probably be very hard to legally justify. Longer range training (beyond 25 yards/meters) serves best a a confidence builder.

In contrast, .22LR in a defensive handgun class will not serve the student quite so well as a conversion unit in a carbine, since the rimfire handgun lacks recoil management. (This is one reason why I have a preference for the Colt conversion unit for 1911s, as it does have at least some recoil due to the floating chamber). Still, for clearing a concealing garment and delivering the first shot against time pressure the service-style .22 handgun will serve.
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Old February 22, 2013, 11:24 AM   #10
Glenn E. Meyer
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I think this is a serious problem. A local agency is offering a teachers shooter course. Sounds very high quality but you have bring 1000 rounds for several days. Try to get that?

The problem is panic and ammo hogs. The latter is a beast I see camped out at the stores. They buy all the ammo to flip. They don't shoot it. I tried to get some ammo for competitions at Bass Pro. Guys were there and scooped up boxes of ammo. They brought their wives to beat the limits. I asked one point blank if he shot it. He, looking down, said that he stashed it and his wife said they don't shoot.

Don't be an ammo hog. If you don't shoot much- if you have a decent supply of your SD or hunting ammo - don't buy it. Let the supply chain return to normal. If you buy to flip - I understand the free market but if you claim to support the RKBA - your 'free market' greed will help weaken the Second Amendment.

Competitions will slow. Folks who want to get into SD won't be able to.

So there is a moral defense of the RKBA that is more important than your short term profit. If you do have a reasonable stock - say 500 SD rounds, let it go for awhile.

I shoot about 300-400 competition rounds a month. I will run out soon just so some person can sit on a stash? Bah -
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Old February 22, 2013, 02:15 PM   #11
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If you do have a reasonable stock - say 500 SD rounds
Perhaps I am naive, but I think 500 rounds of SD ammo is a little excessive even. Do you really defend yourself that often? I have just enough to fill up the 3 mags that I have set aside for SD and an extra box just in case. I understand wanting to shoot your SD ammo before you trust it, but after that what is the point of stockpiling it?
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Old February 22, 2013, 02:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Perhaps I am naive, but I think 500 rounds of SD ammo is a little excessive even
Not really when you think about it.

Every time I shoot my carry revolver, the first rounds out the barrel are those I've been carrying.

If you shoot you carry pistol often (which everyone who carries should), then it wont take long at all go to go through 500 rounds.

You should be practicing with what you carry and fresh rounds should go in every time you shoot your last load.
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Old February 22, 2013, 03:01 PM   #13
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Same answer as kraigwy. My SD ammo does not stay in the gun for more than 2 weeks at a time, even in the winter. I will shoot it up and maybe 10-20 rounds more then the gun gets cleaned loaded and put back till the next time. I use other ammo for competition plinking and heavy duty practice but my SD ammo gets shot regularly so I know exactly where it's going to go. I don't want any surprises at dark thirty when a thump in the dark turns into a boogerman. With a little luck it will all eventually get used for target practice with nary a boogerman in sight but bad things happen and there is no rule saying it cannot happen at your house, your neighbors house, or my house.
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Old February 22, 2013, 03:40 PM   #14
Glenn E. Meyer
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I saw a guy with one of those hand carry baskets full of bricks of 22 LR. Stupid store let you buy 10 boxes - even bricks. So he cleaned the joint out.

He's not going to shoot those all, bet you.
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Old February 22, 2013, 03:53 PM   #15
SHE3PDOG
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You should be practicing with what you carry and fresh rounds should go in every time you shoot your last load.
I guess I can agree with that to an extent, but SD ammo is just so expensive when compared to range ammo. My other concern would be if the ballistics are really that different between the SD load and a range load of the same grain. Without a doubt though, I can understand wanting fresh SD rounds in your gun every so often. Like I said, maybe I was just being naive as those points seem to be valid.
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Old February 22, 2013, 04:03 PM   #16
rburch
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Hell the local Pawn shop gun guy here has resorted to camping out at the big boxes when they get deliveries trying to grab a couple boxes of 9mm or 22.

Then again it's been over a month since he's gotten any from his normal suppliers so I have a hard time complaining about it. And I did buy the last 2 boxes of 9mm he had a while back.

I know some trainers have reduced the round counts in their classes in response to the current situation.

My main instructor will allow reloads, but with reservations. About 4 years ago they had 4 different people have squibs, and 5th guy crack his barrel during a single 2 day class, all from bad reloaded ammo they brought.

The class now has a little paragraph as part of the sign up sheet saying that they won't be waiting around while you fix problems caused by your bad ammo. So reloads are allowed, but if you get a squib or other issue, it's your problem...
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Old February 22, 2013, 04:14 PM   #17
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I don't have anywhere near 500 rounds of SD put by. My SD stuff is mostly already loaded in magazines.

The closest I come to stocking up on SD stuff is putting a bit more Bullseye under my .45 ACP LSWC bullets. They make a good (i.e.; economical) practice round with normal loads as well as a very good SD round when stiff loaded with Unique.

I have a bunch of .22LR bulk that I've been buying for years, and yup, I shoot it.
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Old February 22, 2013, 04:38 PM   #18
Twmaster
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Folks, while I love a good debate, could we keep this on topic?

Thus far few of you have actually answered my question(s).
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Old February 22, 2013, 05:26 PM   #19
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Surely the reason that a class would require factory ammo only is a libility situation. Two angles, perhaps. 1) someone brings monster hot double loaded magnums or whatever, gun blows up, injures kills someone etc... 2) untrained student turns with bad muzzle discipline and shoots another student. We all know those evil handloaded booletz kill people with more evil intent than those more friendly factory loads. That's what the other guy's atty will try and present.

The reason that LE agencies would require duty ammo for training is so that the cop gets used to shooting his duty ammo. This one makes more sense than the other one. If you're going to shoot in the line of duty, you surely want that bullet to go exactly where you think it's going to go. That same "other lawyer" will have a field day with "You trained on this other ammo then you shot my client with this here ammo?".

To address the question, I don't train formally. So I don't "require" any particular kind of ammo. You bring some guns and ammo, we'll go shoot. I'll coach you ONLY if you ask. I have several students, but it's all very informal and one on one.


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Old February 22, 2013, 06:49 PM   #20
ClydeFrog
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Pig bomb...

I agree with the staff member, there are a lot of people buying weapons, magazines, add-ons, ammunition etc.
He's 100% right.
As I put in a few other places in the forum, the high demand & strain will lower the QC or standards too.
The top firms like Hornady, Black Hills, Corbon, Federal, Winchester, Remington, etc already have staffs working 12-16 hrs a day 6/7 days a week.

New staff/HR issues, training, quality mgmt, etc takes time.
It's annoying but that's the way it is in early 2013.

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Old February 22, 2013, 08:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
i dont get the problem with reloads
My liability policy will not allow me to knowingly let students use reloads in my classes.

Personally, I don't have a problem with reloads. Even though there are a surprising number of incompetent reloaders out there, it's not really my problem. If you come to class with equipment that doesn't work, that's on you.

But I do want the insurance policy to keep working, so ...

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To answer the main question, I have gone through my outlines to reduce the round count as much I could in good conscience. There's only so much you can do on that score.

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Old February 22, 2013, 08:49 PM   #22
ClydeFrog
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Pax's post, reloads...

I concur with Pax.
It's not meant as a insult or to be hostile over reloads/hand loaders but QC is a issue sometimes & not all reloaders may be skilled or able to have good ammunition 100% of the time.

EXAMPLE;
About 8 years ago, the range I often to use to do re-quals had reloaded .38spl rounds for the students. The range officer/safety manager swore up & down the loads were great & the guy was a top reloader.
I did a string on the range with a standard 4" barrel .38spl DA revolver; BANG-BANG-BOOM-BANG-BOOM-BOOM.
The reloads were all over the place!
From then on, I made a effort to just use high quality factory loads or good ammunition for re-quals.
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Old February 22, 2013, 08:59 PM   #23
Dragline45
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Quote:
You should be practicing with what you carry and fresh rounds should go in every time you shoot your last load.
I wish I had the money to do that, but school loans will make sure I wont for a few more years. Until then cheap WWB ammo will be what I shoot at the range.
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Old February 22, 2013, 09:01 PM   #24
nixfix
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Quote:
The problem is panic and ammo hogs. The latter is a beast I see camped out at the stores. They buy all the ammo to flip. They don't shoot it. I tried to get some ammo for competitions at Bass Pro. Guys were there and scooped up boxes of ammo. They brought their wives to beat the limits. I asked one point blank if he shot it. He, looking down, said that he stashed it and his wife said they don't shoot.

Don't be an ammo hog. If you don't shoot much- if you have a decent supply of your SD or hunting ammo - don't buy it. Let the supply chain return to normal. If you buy to flip - I understand the free market but if you claim to support the RKBA - your 'free market' greed will help weaken the Second Amendment.
100% agree. I wish more people understood this. If the majority of folks stopped bulk buying the shelves would start having ammo again. And I really don't understand the sentiment in the first place. Not like anyone is even talking about banning ammunition.
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Old February 22, 2013, 09:32 PM   #25
ClydeFrog
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Guns & Ammo...

To me(and this is my take NOT the NSSF or NRA or the gun firms), the big problem with factory rounds now is the fact that like any other product(wine cigars coffee computers cars etc) US consumers(new shooters) want the very best or what they can buy that meets their standards. Many of the top LE grade rounds or duty/protection type loads are produced in low #s or limited pre-Sandy Hook/new gun laws(2013).
The panic & hysteria just make it worse!
I don't think it's some evil plot or a lack of plans-oversight on the shooting sports industry but this is the "new normal" for ammunition & firearms makers.

Clyde
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