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Old February 23, 2014, 05:50 PM   #1
steve4102
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MO Senate Votes to Nullify Federal Gun Laws

On Thursday 02-20-2014 MO Senate passed SB 613 23-10, which will nullify Federal Gun laws with in the State of MO.

It has the usual stuff saying the State will not use it's resources to enforce Federal Gun laws, but it also says It will Criminalize any action by Federal agent who attempt to enforce federal laws.

What do ya think about this one?

http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/02/mi...eral-gun-laws/
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Old February 23, 2014, 06:09 PM   #2
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I'm pretty sure they are trying to create a 10th Amendment vs. Supremacy Clause crisis. It's not much different than legalizing marihuana in Colorado and Washington, or the Firearm Freedom bills in Montana (Idaho? Tennessee? I can't remember.)

Drugs and guns are both juicy bait for getting the feds to react. (one works better on Democrats and the other Republicans, but they'll work on both because the real issue is power)
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Old February 23, 2014, 06:16 PM   #3
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I'm sure you are correct, but I didn't read anything in the States Legalizing pot saying they would arrest Federal Agents?
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Old February 23, 2014, 06:26 PM   #4
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I'm pretty sure the "Nullification Crisis" was a while ago.

Isn't this fairly settled, with regards to federal laws (within usual scope)?
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Old February 23, 2014, 06:31 PM   #5
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Just be careful what you wish for, the last civil war began in Kansas and Missouri 10 years before the SHTF. You may think its going to be only a paper and mouth fight. But could well turn into a horrible event.
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Old February 23, 2014, 11:26 PM   #6
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They do realize that "Federal gun laws" include MOST of the gun laws we have to worry about on a day to day basis right? Not just the NFA parts that most people like to complain about. Not that I like having those gun laws around.
But are they going to arrest an ATF agent just for coming into a gun shop to do an inventory audit? That's enforcing federal gun laws. That would turn into a big, and pretty interesting mess fairly quickly.

All in all it's a nice gesture but I don't put much stock in these laws. They can pass all the laws they want. But if you build an illegal M16 and get busted by the Feds. Is Missouri gonna pay for the lawyers to back you up in court and send a SWAT team to break you outta prison if the lawyers fail? I highly doubt it.
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Old February 24, 2014, 12:03 AM   #7
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This came up last year as well. Essentially, it's an attempt at reviving nullification, but the courts have routinely and unanimously rejected the doctrine for over a century.

We saw this a few years back with various states' "firearms freedom laws." Nobody stepped up to risk their skin to stir up a legal challenge. Considering that doing so could entail serious penalties on the federal level, I can't say I blame them.

There are two possibilities here. The first is that they're trying to create a test case on 10th Amendment grounds. If so, they're misguided.

The other is that they're simply pandering for votes from the true believers. If so, they're just being dishonest by selling a sense of false security. No way is a local Sheriff going to try and arrest ATF agents when they show up to do a bust.
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Old February 24, 2014, 02:28 PM   #8
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Being a Missouri citizen, I find the whole thing very embarrassing, and have written to my representatives about it. Threatening to use state and local police to arrest federal agents for the crime of enforcing federal law is the depth of buffoonary, a travesty, a child's tantrum, the product of diminished faculty. What a stupid waste of time. It accomplishes nothing, it proves nothing, it makes gun owners look pathetic, and it makes Missouri look incompetent.
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Old February 24, 2014, 05:16 PM   #9
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... Unless there are enough states to pass such laws and then call for a ConCon.

Just saying.
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Old February 24, 2014, 05:43 PM   #10
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We need a lot more of that happening.
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:35 PM   #11
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Unless there are enough states to pass such laws and then call for a ConCon.
Yes, but the idea of rewriting the Constitution scares the pants off me. Exactly what would be in the new one, and what would it contain?
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:32 PM   #12
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A constitutional convention in today's highly fragmented United States would be a melee of monumental proportions with a highly unpredictable result. Everything will be on the table.

Remember a lot of people don't think too highly of the First Amendment, and for a variety of different reasons. Plenty of folks are skeptical of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments as well.

Sure plenty of folks here have their "wish lists", and maybe many of us would share at least large parts. But there are also lots of folks with some very different wish lists that probably none of us would like at all.

The original constitutional convention wasn't a "walk in the park." Fifty-five delegates attended it. Thirty-nine signed the proposed Constitution. Thirteen left without signing, and three refused to sign.

There was then a bitter fight over ratification by the States. And it indeed looked like the Constitution would fail ratification until the Massachusetts Compromise was hashed out -- giving us the Bill of Rights.
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:45 PM   #13
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I can only imagine what a newly re-written Constitution would read like. I'd need a legalese translator.
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Old February 24, 2014, 10:18 PM   #14
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Exactly what would be in the new one, and what would it contain
Well for starters Facebook wouldn't be able to infringe my free speech rights any more. It's long past time we expand the 1st amendment to mean what I, and others, think it means, for me against all you other people - but not FOR you other people, instead of what it really means.

Second those crazy wacko dudes in Progressive Americans for Conservative Patriots won't have free speech at all any more. Sure it did it's part during the civil rights movement, but that was the last time we needed it. It's not like we need another Loving v Virginia in Prop 8 and DOMA. I'm sure we won't find something else to discriminate against, and those people so discriminated against won't need free speech to tell us about it.

Speaking of rights that we need to better define, or redefine - we obviously need an amendment for this right to not get shot I keep hearing about in debates.

And life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a right without an amendment it seems.

I think it's high time you people quit getting in my face and yelling at me when you're mad at me too. Infringing my right to peace and tranquility.

On a serious note, while I hope you all took this with the note of irony and sarcasm with which it was intended. Except maybe Tom, as this may have been his nightmare writ large. If it makes you feel better though Tom, I agree with you. The rights an average every man thinks s/he has are not the rights this same average every man thinks everyone ELSE has when those rights would annoy Everyman. Couple that with the people who think they shouldn't be fired for posting a topless photo of themself in the skirt of their stewardess uniform while still on the plane they were just crewing on because they have first amendment rights both should, and shouldn't be involved in the amendment process anyway.
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Old February 24, 2014, 11:11 PM   #15
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Btmj, I am a Missourian as well and agree with you. While I can appreciate the point they are trying to get across with the bill, it is quite simply a waste of time, the bill would never pass the whole legislature and as such is dead on arrival. I don't think any of MO Law Enforcement community want a whizzing match with the Feds, the state then runs the risk of losing a lot of Federal $ for roads etc. etc. Honestly I am surprised that the Feds haven't played the $ withholding game on states that legalized marijuana, a different administration would probably have played it differently, maybe not better but differently. I actually respect the Feds for honoring some of the States laws with regard to marijuana and even same sex marriages. The Federal Laws should be very minimal and with regard to national threats/interests only, let the states decide how to legislate they own states, each state is different and has their own preferences.
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Old February 25, 2014, 12:01 AM   #16
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Several posts have been deleted for criticism of "leftists" and "liberals." We don't do left/right stuff here, so let's not go there.
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Old February 25, 2014, 12:07 AM   #17
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Well! That certainly woke up some people!!

Yes, a ConCon would be an utter disaster. More than likely to result in separate nations than one unified nation.

I only brought this up, because there are many other folks (on other gun boards) that are chaffing at the bit, for just such a thing to occur.
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Old February 25, 2014, 11:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
I only brought this up, because there are many other folks (on other gun boards) that are chaffing at the bit, for just such a thing to occur.
When you question some of those guys they claim it would be a "limited" Constitutional Convention to repeal the 17th amendment and add and an amendment requiring a balanced budget. Yeah, right!!!
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Old February 25, 2014, 11:07 AM   #19
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The problem is, once you convene a CC, all the cards are on table.
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Old February 25, 2014, 11:36 AM   #20
7n6
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nfa stamps?

Quote:
Any tax, levy, fee, or stamp imposed on firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition
I know I'm gana sound dumb here but does this meen that we can buy and transfer and manufacture full autos and suppressors with waiting for tax stamps and no more waiting for the 6 month backround check?
If not I dont understand the point or what they're talking about, unless they are just trying to say they're not going to enforce any NEW laws that come about.
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Old February 25, 2014, 12:16 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7n6
Quote:
Any tax, levy, fee, or stamp imposed on firearms, firearm accessories, or ammunition
I know I'm gana sound dumb here but does this meen that we can buy and transfer and manufacture full autos and suppressors with waiting for tax stamps and no more waiting for the 6 month backround check?...
Some people might believe that, but anyone acting on such belief would likely wind up in federal prison.

These sorts of state laws are largely symbolic and nothing more:
  1. See the Constitution of the United States, Article VI, Clause 2:
    Quote:
    ...This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding...
  2. See also Montana Shooting Sports Association v. Holder, No. 10-36094, (9th Cir., 2013).

  3. So while a State may decide not to enforce federal law or assist with the furtherance of federal policy (Printz v. U.S., 521 U.S. 898, 117 S.Ct. 2365, 138 L.Ed.2d 914 (1997)), a State may not nullify federal law; and the federal agents may still enforce federal law without a State's help.
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Old February 25, 2014, 12:39 PM   #22
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I think they are saying the federal law oversteps its authority, under the 2nd Amendment. There is precedent that an unconstitutional law is a nullity (Norton v. Shelby) So by extension anyone enforcing it is violating civil rights and a lawbreaker themselves.

That's the theory from a layman's perspective anyway, but since fed.gov gets to umpire its own games, it's all symbolic (this is just a bill and not a law yet, right?)
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Old February 25, 2014, 01:00 PM   #23
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That's the theory from a layman's perspective anyway, but since fed.gov gets to umpire its own games, it's all symbolic
In practice, yes. Essentially, the MO law exempts residents from prosecution by state and local authorities. It cannot promise that same exemption from federal prosecution, and that's what makes it dangerous.
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Old February 25, 2014, 01:36 PM   #24
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Yes, a ConCon would be an utter disaster. More than likely to result in separate nations than one unified nation.
Do you really think so? That 75% hurdle makes me believe it's more likely to end up being an extremely long debate that results in a whole lot of nothing. A couple months of news coverage, then a couple months of sporadic coverage, finished off by a couple months of calls to quit wasting tax revenue on a con-con that isn't getting anything done. You wouldn't see secession, or anything else get over that hurdle would you?
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Old February 25, 2014, 02:00 PM   #25
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You would need 38 states with the same roadmap for a Co-Co to be anything other than an expensive circus. I think it will happen, but not yet.
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