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Old February 11, 2013, 08:48 PM   #1
Vinnie Harold
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New Sig. 220 with MIM parts or older model

Can someone with more knowledge help me here?

I have been investigating buying the Sig. 220 elite stainless, and I found information suggesting that the older Sigs. 2005-2008 were better made than the new ones. The older ones were made from a single block of stainless, while the newer ones are cast.
Also the newer ones are using MIM parts manufactured in Indonesia while the older ones had better parts and a tighter fit.

It has been suggested that an older Sig. with a the trigger/action job as the SRT system adds extra overtravel and creep.

I have read about an Action Job by a Sig. armorer which restores the old German patent values of creep and overtravel while utilizing the new SRT short reset system. The end result is a butter smooth 7.5 to 8.0 pound Double Action and a crisp 3.25 to 3.75 pound single action with no perceptible creep or trigger lash. (I copied this cause I'm not 100% sure what it means)

As a novice, I am trying to understand all of this to determine if a "worked on" older Sig. is better than a factory new one. The only simple thing I have learned is that the new Sig.s have the better external extractors while the older ones have a internal extractor which caused many FTF incidents.

Any experts please feel free to jump in.

Thanks.
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Old February 11, 2013, 09:01 PM   #2
sigarms228
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Where did you get the information that the newer stainless steel frames are cast?? If they indeed are cast frames, and I am NOT saying they are, I doubt they are in any danger of wearing out or breaking as I believe cast frames have been used in some pretty expensive 1911 pistols and I believe at least some Caspian 1911 frames are cast.

SIG, as all mass producing firearm manufacturers, have been using MIM parts for years now and well before 2005. Latest info I have is that at least some new SIGs have been seen by new SIG owners and Grayguns that have some very high quality MIM parts (hammer and sear reportedly) made from S7 tool steel - see link below where the owner of a new P226 Tacops was amazed with the trigger quality out of the box. If you want a SIG P220 with no or minimum MIM parts you are better off looking for one from the mid 90s or earlier though it will have an alloy frame or maybe a pricy pistol from the SIG Mastershop in Germany. IMO nothing wrong with the earlier Stainless Elites either and they are beautiful pistols and my preference are the ones with the original short external extractor.


http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc...5/m/4600080803

Last edited by sigarms228; February 11, 2013 at 09:13 PM.
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Old February 11, 2013, 09:37 PM   #3
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The folks who rage against MIM parts had better just resign themselves. MIM is a great way to make parts for any small items (and some pretty large ones). The main advantage is that the part comes out at the exact dimensions needed, without additional machining or fitting, which means at less cost. While some of us might be willing to pay $4000 or more for a pistol made by forging and machining like in "the old days", most of us will opt for affordable guns and skip the sentiment.

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Old February 11, 2013, 09:42 PM   #4
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A few years ago I had a falling out with Sig Sauer. Recently, (last couple of years,) I have thoroughly enjoyed Sig products. If you have a problem with a Sig Sauer firearm they will fix it. Sig customer support is much better then it use to be. The guys and girls at the Sig Academy and Pro shop will bend over backwards to help you out. The Sig Academy, (thank you Adam!,) is top notch. I can't say enough about Sig Sauer, don't be afraid to purchase a new P220.
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Old February 11, 2013, 09:54 PM   #5
Billy Shears
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A few years ago I had a falling out with Sig Sauer. Recently, (last couple of years,) I have thoroughly enjoyed Sig products. If you have a problem with a Sig Sauer firearm they will fix it. Sig customer support is much better then it use to be. The guys and girls at the Sig Academy and Pro shop will bend over backwards to help you out.
That's good to know. I also had a very bad experience with Sig's QC & CS a few years ago and haven't looked at their product line since. If things have improved we'll all be better off.
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Old February 11, 2013, 10:16 PM   #6
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Sig is being turned into Kimber. I wish they go back to their roots and take things more seriously not only QC but also RD. This whole rainbow, diamond plate, and tribal (WTH?!) needs to go. This is not the Sig I remember. I would go for traditional pre 04 Sigs, preferably West German ones.

This is absolutely ridiculous how they run such a reputable company to the ground. I love Sigs just make me mad how they can just Kimberfy everything for profits

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Old February 11, 2013, 10:18 PM   #7
Billy Shears
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This whole rainbow, diamond plate, and tribal (WTH?!) needs to go.
Agree 100%, but I have taken a liking to some of their 1911s.
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Old February 11, 2013, 10:53 PM   #8
Walt Sherrill
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When I first responded here, I noted that Ruger had advanced the science and art of MIM. I went on to say that according to experts, when done well, MIM parts are just as strong as other types of parts and are generally more precisely made. The first part was wrong, the second was correct.

A later participant correctly disputed my original claim (which was that Ruger was a "pioneer" in MIM.) He was right and I was wrong -- and I've adjusted it here. When I first wrote, I confused Ruger's Pine Tree Casting's business, which does Investment Casting, with MIM. Investment casting is a vaguely similar process (at least to a layman), but is used for large parts; those parts may still need machining when done. MIM is for small parts, and no machining is required. My error.

It costs a lot more to set up the MIM production process for a single MIM part, but there's much less work required later. Precision is built into the products through the MIM process. With machined parts, the tools that are used to make individually machined pieces are constantly having to be repaired, replaced, or "tuned"; parts made through that process generally require a good bit of fitting and rework if the firms quality control is good.

With the MIM process, all of the effort expended on the front-end in making the molds for the MIM parts means less work later. A mold for a single part might cost $50,000 or more, because of the care and precision required to build the mold. But only one mold is needed, they don't wear out with use, and the first part made will be exactly like all of the rest.

There's a letter from Herb Bellin at S&W floating around the net -- I've got a copy -- that is quite lengthy and talks about where and why MIM is used. Very interesting.

He notes that many people complain about MIM parts but seldom have specifics. I know that there were some problems early on with some MIM parts, but that may been more a failure on the people making the parts than with MIM process itself. (A great car design built by crappy builders and parts suppliers is still going to be a crappy car...)

I don't think I've ever heard a complaint about Ruger MIM parts -- and they also supply many MIM parts to to other companies and industries, including parts for jet engines. It appears that S&W first tested MIM in hammers and triggers -- parts they consider high stress -- and found it quite effective; S&W now uses MIM in other applications.

Concern about MIM parts in some guns may have been a legitimate concern in years past, but it probably is far less justified, nowadays. The technology has advanced but the old fears and rumors remain.

.

Last edited by Walt Sherrill; February 12, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
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Old February 12, 2013, 12:05 AM   #9
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I have a SIG 1911 XO. Which has been flawless...and it's all SS machined goodness. Weighs a ton. 750+ trouble free rounds. Accurate as ish. Just awesome.

I have a SIG P226 e2 that was made in 2010. With a SS frame as well I'm pretty sure...External extractor. Also been great. With only 3 malfunctions in 3,000+ rounds. With range ammo and rigorous training.

I have a West German made, American assembled SIG P220. That I am in love with. It has a folded carbon steel slide. And it's the lightest of my SIG's mentioned. Very well balanced. I love it.

My advice? Pick up one of those. My P220 was made in the year 2000. Internal extractor. I purchased it used and replaced most of the springs and that thing is a tack driver.

You don't have to spend thousands like people were telling you to in your last thread. Heck, not even 1,000...

Just find a nice used one like I did. Pay $500-$700 and call it a day.

All the springs and such I bought came out to a whopping $45 dollars! And you're set for thousands upon thousands of rounds.

I just bought myself 3 more ACT mags for my SIG P220. Cause they finally became available again. I've been checking for them daily like clock work. Tonight it was finally available. I used my credit card. Bought 3 and it came out to $66.80 shipped. I'm happy about that.


Anyways, take my advice man! Trust me. Check one out. Used at a LGS and/or gunbroker dot com or armslist dot com.

Let me know what you do! I'll walk you through anything you may need to know. Took mine apart entirely (minus the slide for now) and cleaned every single nook and cranny when I replaced the springs and such.

You don't even have to do that I bet. It's just that my P220 was my first used SIG I've bought. The owner before me had "some esplainin to do" lol.


Ok, I've rambled enough! Do it!!!!!
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Old February 12, 2013, 01:06 AM   #10
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Ruger was not a MIM pioneer. They started working MIMs into their lineup with the M77 boltgun extractors roughly 11 or 12 years ago, and they outsource their MIM parts.
Theirs are typically higher quality than those I see in another brand I won't mention.
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Old February 12, 2013, 06:35 AM   #11
Double Impact
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Nothing wrong or bad about new sigs. I have several new sigs two of which are P220 ss elites. I carry one of them. I have thousands of flawless rds thru these guns. I won't or need to say anymore.
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Old February 12, 2013, 09:59 AM   #12
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I second what Constantine says about springs. I was on the range with another PD and they were having trouble with their P220s. The trouble started about six months prior to the day I was with them. Luckily we were at a Sig event and one of the Sig armorers looked at the pistols and told them they needed to replace the recoil springs. Sig gave them new ones right there and no more problems. The pistols years of service and round count dictated replacing the the RSA but they hadn't done the required maintenance. A simple fix, kinda like changing the oil in your car ever 3,000-5,000 miles, it just needs to be done!
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Old February 12, 2013, 10:40 AM   #13
Marquezj16
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2003 - P220 Germany parts, US assembly. Zero Problem
2010 - SP2022 - Germany parts and assembly. Zero Problem.
2012 - 1911 Nitron TacPac - US parts and assembly. Zero Problem.

Ok, before anybody gets's all crazy, I'm not sure if every single part is made in the country I stated. That said, three different pistols, from one company and zero problem. Any questions?
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Old February 12, 2013, 10:55 AM   #14
Constantine
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Darn right Marquez! lol Gotta love them. I'm in absolute love with my SIG's.

I need to get more O_O

How's that SP2022 going for you? I've kind of wanted one for a little while now. I'm just a SIG 1911 and P-series freak.
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Old February 12, 2013, 11:06 AM   #15
Marquezj16
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The SP2022 is one heck of a gun. It fits my hand like a glove and I'm so used to it that it serves night stand duty. I almost bought a second one because I like it so much.
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Old February 12, 2013, 11:16 AM   #16
Constantine
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I was thinking that part at least! So far every P-Series I've held fit me like a glove.

I gotta see the SP2022 for myself! I think I may get it even though I can't seem to find a LGS that has it.


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Old February 12, 2013, 11:21 AM   #17
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The main advantage is that the part comes out at the exact dimensions needed, without additional machining or fitting, which means at less cost.
Certainly wasn't the case with MIM Glock extractors.
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Old February 12, 2013, 11:26 AM   #18
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When looking for a P220, new or old, you will need to accept that there is a difference. A P220 Elite will not have a true old counterpart. That means, Sig never made an Elite anything back in Germany. They just made P220s. Slight variants, but never far from a standard P220.

Older Sigs, German and West German, usually have folded carbon steel slides and alloy frames. Great balance and less weight of current production P220. This holds for most Sig models coming from Germany and all from West Germany by the way. True "Sig-o-files", made up word btw, believe West German production was the height of perfection. To have a West German Sig with triple serial numbers and German proof marks is their goal in life. Triple serial numbers require the frame, slide and barrel to be so marked with the same serial#, Proofhouse marks(tested) required by German law. Get one of these, send it in to Sig for one of their maintenance packages, and perhaps have it refinished and you will have a wonderful firearm for years to come.

Newer Sigs are produced in the New Hampshire plant. US made through and though. These come with Stainless steel slides and alloy frames. Stainless frames come on some model variants. New styles have been added to their line up during this period. Elites, Equinox, SAS etc... Some like, some don't. But beside that added weight in the slide, they perform just like the older Sigs.

There is much more information and this is just a quick overview. As you can see with my explaination of older Sigs, that is where I would go. Not that I don not own newer ones, I diffentially do. But my choice. As for you, do not feel one is better than the other. But there is a difference, personal preferrence is the key. Figure out with you can and can not live with on a P220 and than find a model to fill your needs.

Sorry for the long rant, but I am a bit passonite about my Sigs.

Happy hunting.
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Old February 12, 2013, 01:00 PM   #19
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Stupid question. How can you tell by sight if a firearm has MIM parts??
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Old February 12, 2013, 02:25 PM   #20
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I have an old, 1986, P226. Stock, the trigger was horrible, especially in DA: gritty and heavy.

I installed the SRT and the single action really cleaned up, but the DA was still horrible.

I then replaced the hammer spring and hammer strut to the newest style and that really cleaned up the DA trigger and smoothed all of it out.

Old gun with new parts and it's better than ever.
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Old February 12, 2013, 03:06 PM   #21
Constantine
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Quote:
Certainly wasn't the case with MIM Glock extractors.

Here here! That's why I got rid of my Gen 4 Glock 19.

Quote:
God gave you a soul.
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This^^^^ is beautiful.


Quote:
I have an old, 1986, P226. Stock, the trigger was horrible, especially in DA: gritty and heavy.

I installed the SRT and the single action really cleaned up, but the DA was still horrible.

I then replaced the hammer spring and hammer strut to the newest style and that really cleaned up the DA trigger and smoothed all of it out.

Old gun with new parts and it's better than ever.
I shoot my P220 well not...But if I can make my P220's trigger like my P226 e2's trigger..I'm one happier man.
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Old February 12, 2013, 03:41 PM   #22
Walt Sherrill
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Originally Posted by DPris
Ruger was not a MIM pioneer. They started working MIMs into their lineup with the M77 boltgun extractors roughly 11 or 12 years ago, and they outsource their MIM parts.
Theirs are typically higher quality than those I see in another brand I won't mention.
DPris is right on this point. I've corrected my earlier comment in #8. I was confusing Ruger's major Investment Casting business with their use of MIM parts. My error.
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Old February 12, 2013, 04:14 PM   #23
DPris
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It IS a confusing world.
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Old February 12, 2013, 05:32 PM   #24
Destructo6
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I shoot my P220 well not...But if I can make my P220's trigger like my P226 e2's trigger..I'm one happier man.
You can.

I put the SRT, E2 grips, and 16lb Wolff mainspring in the P226: a world of difference.
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Old February 12, 2013, 05:39 PM   #25
Constantine
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I'm not fond of the e2 grips. I took them off my P226 e2 and put them to standard.

I think I'll just leave the p220's mechanism alone. I have a knack lately of trying to fix what isn't broken (to my standard cause I shoot the P220 great already)


Sent from my phone...expect typos.
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