C & R and military surplus

**James K** · February 11, 2013, 09:45 PM

I would like to clear up what I see as confusion regarding C&R and milsurp.

Many military surplus guns are in the Curio and Relic category by virtue of being over 50 years old. But all guns over 50 years old are C&R, not just milsurp. As of today, that means any gun made before Feb. 11, 1963.

So folks with C&R licenses (FFL 03) may be missing out on a lot of guns by thinking only of milsurps. Sure, that Mosin-Nagant is a C&R item. But so is that nice S&W Model 19 made in 1962. Or that Colt Python made in 1960. Or that pre-64 Winchester Model 70 from 1959.

So take advantage of your C&R license. A lot more than milsurp can be shipped directly to you.

Jim

Onward Allusion · February 11, 2013, 10:45 PM

The problem is that most FFL Dealers will not sell a 50 YO firearm directly to a C&R. Sure, the CZ82, Mosin Nagants, some SKS's...etc. aren't a problem but when you start trying to buy that S&W 39 with your C&R - good luck!

kilimanjaro · February 12, 2013, 12:51 AM

I've tried that route, the dealers won't go for it, if it isn't a milsurp. And over the counter, the FFL03 counts for nothing, you buy it the same as everyone else with a 4473 and NICS check.

Still great for internet and mail sales, though.

OcelotZ3 · February 12, 2013, 01:33 AM

I haven't had a problem buying non-milsurp with my 03. In fact, only one of them has been milsurp...

tahunua001 · February 12, 2013, 01:52 AM

agreed, it's hard enough to try to get some FFLs to give their information to you so you can ship a gun to them without a license, such a practice is completely legal yet I have had several FFL holders insist that you MUST have a FFL to ship a gun and to not do so is illegal.

it saddens me to say it but many FFL holders don't even understand how their own license works, no less how a license that they haven't had cause to research works.

yes you can buy a remington model 30 with your C&R license but since most FFLs that deal with C&Rs mainly deal with military surplus rifles it is kindof an oddity to have someone ask to buy a pre 64 winchester with a C&R, it is not what they are used to dealing with and the knee jerk reaction is to just say no and make them do an FFL transfer. it is not right but good luck re-educating the several thousand FFL holders across the US.

Cheapshooter · February 12, 2013, 05:09 PM

I don't think there has ever been much confusion about C&R firearms. I think it's mostly that the majority of Class 03 FFL license holders are only interested in milsurps. Partialy because of their history, partially because of the relatively low price of many of them.

bumnote · February 12, 2013, 05:35 PM

I've used mine for an S&W M&P and K38, neither were surplus and didn't have any problem. But I was lucky enough to be dealing with folks that knew what they were doing.

I go to Texas often and if I'm at a shop and they ask me what I'm interested in I always say something like, "I'm from Virginia so I'm really only interested in these C&R revolvers..." etc. That way if there's going to be any issue I'm going to know before I get too interested in something. One place wasn't going to do it...their loss.

Heavy Metal 1 · February 12, 2013, 11:18 PM

I wanted to buy an 1890's something Mosin with my C&R from a gunshop to avoid the NCIS fee and the LGS guy wouldn't go for it. His "what the heck is that" comment when I showed him my C&R lic. didn't bode well for a smooth transaction.

Cheapshooter · February 12, 2013, 11:43 PM

Quote:

I wanted to buy an 1890's something Mosin with my C&R from a gunshop to avoid the NCIS fee and the LGS guy wouldn't go for it. His "what the heck is that" comment when I showed him my C&R lic. didn't bode well for a smooth transaction

I think it's a "play dumb" scheme by many dealers that don't want their customers to know that for a coupl bucks more tha one transfer, or the dealers mark up on a gun or two, they can get a C&R FFL that is pretty hassle free so they can have quilafied guns shipped to them directly. They know what an 03 FFL is, they just want to ignore they exisist, and keep other customers from knowing about them

**James K** · February 13, 2013, 12:00 AM

Some interesting responses. I had rather gotten the idea from the sites that 03 FFL holders themselves didn't realize that the license was good for more than milsurp. Maybe we can educate everyone.

One place to start might be comments like "I have had several FFL holders insist that you MUST have a FFL to ship a gun and to not do so is illegal."

An 03 FFL IS an FFL, though one limited to a certain class of guns, and there is no restriction on who can ship a gun, only on who can mail a gun. The restriction is on to whom a gun can be shipped in interstate commerce.

There is a change in the works with USPS, I understand, but the wording of the change is very ambiguous and confusing.

Jim

carguychris · February 13, 2013, 10:46 AM

Quote:

There is a change in the works with USPS, I understand, but the wording of the change is very ambiguous and confusing.

Where can I find more info?

I would be VERY interested in a change that would allow me to ship handguns in the Priority Mail Flat Rate Box rather than UPS Next Day Air Saver.

tobnpr · February 14, 2013, 10:03 AM

The first of the AR-15's (Colt) are about to turn 50 years old...very few in 1962, production really started in '63 but I don't know how many units were released.

**James K** · February 15, 2013, 12:03 AM

Hi, Carguychris,

I have been trying to find it again. IIRC, it provided that firearms that had been "certified by a museum...." could be mailed by C&R licensees and to C&R licensees by anyone. The wording is from the definition of C&R in the law, but didn't mention the 50 year rule and didn't say if an actual certificate was needed or if a class/type of firearm was meant, or if a separate certificate was needed for each gun. That is why I said the wording was ambiguous and not (IMHO) something to be relied on until the questions are answered.

Jim

SteveBonning · February 15, 2013, 05:23 PM

Certified by a museum curator as historically significant is one of the methods to get a firearm that is not necessarily 50 years old to be accepted by the BATF as a C & R firearm. It still must go through an application process however if the said firearm is less than 50 yo.

kilimanjaro · February 15, 2013, 10:48 PM

I'd love it if the Ruger No. 1 could be classified as C&R !

stu925 · February 17, 2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

I'd love it if the Ruger No. 1 could be classified as C&R !

If my math is right you got 3 years left until the first No 1s become C&Rs. From Ruger and His Guns the No 1 was first introduced in 1966.

Stu

Hardcase · February 18, 2013, 04:05 PM

Regarding the proposed USPS changes, they are for labeling ORM-D materials. By 2015, that category will be eliminated by the Department of Transportation, so materials that currently use the ORM-D label will have to be marked with the familiar "sideways square" with the appropriate boxes filled in.

By the way, there's no mystery about what changes are pending to the Post Office's Mailing Standards Department. Like all federal agencies, the proposals have to be published in the Federal Register and an appropriate comment period must be open. You can see what's been published in the Federal Register here: http://pe.usps.com/federalregisternotices.asp.

**James K** · February 20, 2013, 09:06 PM

The change that was mentioned on a web site was not to the ORM-D classification but to the mailing of firearms designated as curios and relics. I sure wish I had noted the source.

Jim

kilimanjaro · February 21, 2013, 01:46 AM

Just got some ammo in today, no ORM-D stickers, just the white flash on black background for a label.

tobnpr · February 23, 2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Certified by a museum curator as historically significant is one of the methods to get a firearm that is not necessarily 50 years old to be accepted by the BATF as a C & R firearm.

Yep...
The CZ-82 is barely more than half of the 50 year "standard"...I don't know what got them C&R status (maybe the fall of the Czechoslovakia in '93) but I sure am glad they did

Hardcase · February 26, 2013, 06:15 PM

Heheh, my wife is the curator of a museum. I keep thinking of all the C&R firearms that she could certify...

February 11, 2013, 09:45 PM	#1
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,411	C & R and military surplus I would like to clear up what I see as confusion regarding C&R and milsurp. Many military surplus guns are in the Curio and Relic category by virtue of being over 50 years old. But all guns over 50 years old are C&R, not just milsurp. As of today, that means any gun made before Feb. 11, 1963. So folks with C&R licenses (FFL 03) may be missing out on a lot of guns by thinking only of milsurps. Sure, that Mosin-Nagant is a C&R item. But so is that nice S&W Model 19 made in 1962. Or that Colt Python made in 1960. Or that pre-64 Winchester Model 70 from 1959. So take advantage of your C&R license. A lot more than milsurp can be shipped directly to you. Jim __________________ Jim K

February 11, 2013, 10:45 PM	#2
Onward Allusion Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: IN Posts: 1,477	The problem is that most FFL Dealers will not sell a 50 YO firearm directly to a C&R. Sure, the CZ82, Mosin Nagants, some SKS's...etc. aren't a problem but when you start trying to buy that S&W 39 with your C&R - good luck! __________________ "With great power, there must also come great responsibility." - Stan Lee "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

February 12, 2013, 01:52 AM	#5
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 3,607	agreed, it's hard enough to try to get some FFLs to give their information to you so you can ship a gun to them without a license, such a practice is completely legal yet I have had several FFL holders insist that you MUST have a FFL to ship a gun and to not do so is illegal. it saddens me to say it but many FFL holders don't even understand how their own license works, no less how a license that they haven't had cause to research works. yes you can buy a remington model 30 with your C&R license but since most FFLs that deal with C&Rs mainly deal with military surplus rifles it is kindof an oddity to have someone ask to buy a pre 64 winchester with a C&R, it is not what they are used to dealing with and the knee jerk reaction is to just say no and make them do an FFL transfer. it is not right but good luck re-educating the several thousand FFL holders across the US. __________________ all guns lost in a tragic smelting accident. I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.

February 12, 2013, 05:09 PM	#6
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 3,491	I don't think there has ever been much confusion about C&R firearms. I think it's mostly that the majority of Class 03 FFL license holders are only interested in milsurps. Partialy because of their history, partially because of the relatively low price of many of them. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

February 12, 2013, 05:35 PM	#7
bumnote Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 353	I've used mine for an S&W M&P and K38, neither were surplus and didn't have any problem. But I was lucky enough to be dealing with folks that knew what they were doing. I go to Texas often and if I'm at a shop and they ask me what I'm interested in I always say something like, "I'm from Virginia so I'm really only interested in these C&R revolvers..." etc. That way if there's going to be any issue I'm going to know before I get too interested in something. One place wasn't going to do it...their loss. __________________ "And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre

February 12, 2013, 12:51 AM	#3
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 912	I've tried that route, the dealers won't go for it, if it isn't a milsurp. And over the counter, the FFL03 counts for nothing, you buy it the same as everyone else with a 4473 and NICS check. Still great for internet and mail sales, though.

February 12, 2013, 01:33 AM	#4
OcelotZ3 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2008 Posts: 151	I haven't had a problem buying non-milsurp with my 03. In fact, only one of them has been milsurp...

February 12, 2013, 11:18 PM	#8
Heavy Metal 1 Member Join Date: January 17, 2012 Posts: 89	I wanted to buy an 1890's something Mosin with my C&R from a gunshop to avoid the NCIS fee and the LGS guy wouldn't go for it. His "what the heck is that" comment when I showed him my C&R lic. didn't bode well for a smooth transaction. __________________ It's not a big surprise to feel your temperature rise You've gotta get your redline fever 'Cause there is just one cure that they know for sure You just become a heavy metal believer.

February 13, 2013, 12:00 AM	#10
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,411	Some interesting responses. I had rather gotten the idea from the sites that 03 FFL holders themselves didn't realize that the license was good for more than milsurp. Maybe we can educate everyone. One place to start might be comments like "I have had several FFL holders insist that you MUST have a FFL to ship a gun and to not do so is illegal." An 03 FFL IS an FFL, though one limited to a certain class of guns, and there is no restriction on who can ship a gun, only on who can mail a gun. The restriction is on to whom a gun can be shipped in interstate commerce. There is a change in the works with USPS, I understand, but the wording of the change is very ambiguous and confusing. Jim __________________ Jim K

February 14, 2013, 10:03 AM	#12
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 2,211	The first of the AR-15's (Colt) are about to turn 50 years old...very few in 1962, production really started in '63 but I don't know how many units were released.

February 15, 2013, 12:03 AM	#13
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,411	Hi, Carguychris, I have been trying to find it again. IIRC, it provided that firearms that had been "certified by a museum...." could be mailed by C&R licensees and to C&R licensees by anyone. The wording is from the definition of C&R in the law, but didn't mention the 50 year rule and didn't say if an actual certificate was needed or if a class/type of firearm was meant, or if a separate certificate was needed for each gun. That is why I said the wording was ambiguous and not (IMHO) something to be relied on until the questions are answered. Jim __________________ Jim K

February 15, 2013, 05:23 PM	#14
SteveBonning Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 81	Certified by a museum curator as historically significant is one of the methods to get a firearm that is not necessarily 50 years old to be accepted by the BATF as a C & R firearm. It still must go through an application process however if the said firearm is less than 50 yo. __________________ Steve Bonning, PA-C Licensed Collector of Curios & Relics Maryland Designated Collector

February 15, 2013, 10:48 PM	#15
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 912	I'd love it if the Ruger No. 1 could be classified as C&R !

February 18, 2013, 04:05 PM	#17
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,880	Regarding the proposed USPS changes, they are for labeling ORM-D materials. By 2015, that category will be eliminated by the Department of Transportation, so materials that currently use the ORM-D label will have to be marked with the familiar "sideways square" with the appropriate boxes filled in. By the way, there's no mystery about what changes are pending to the Post Office's Mailing Standards Department. Like all federal agencies, the proposals have to be published in the Federal Register and an appropriate comment period must be open. You can see what's been published in the Federal Register here: http://pe.usps.com/federalregisternotices.asp. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

February 20, 2013, 09:06 PM	#18
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,411	The change that was mentioned on a web site was not to the ORM-D classification but to the mailing of firearms designated as curios and relics. I sure wish I had noted the source. Jim __________________ Jim K

February 21, 2013, 01:46 AM	#19
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 912	Just got some ammo in today, no ORM-D stickers, just the white flash on black background for a label.

February 26, 2013, 06:15 PM	#21
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,880	Heheh, my wife is the curator of a museum. I keep thinking of all the C&R firearms that she could certify... __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae