HR 538: Ban on the FN Five-seveN pistol

HarrySchell · February 12, 2013, 01:01 PM

H.R. 538: To protect the Nation’s law enforcement officers by banning the Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190, SS192, SS195LF, SS196, and SS197 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.

Introduced:Feb 06, 2013 (113th Congress, 2013–2015)
Sponsor:Rep. Eliot Engel [D-NY16][/B]

Probably won't go very far, but who knows?

Patriot86 · February 12, 2013, 01:16 PM

I always thought that only certain, civilian non-legal loads of 5.7mm ammo were capable of penetrating level IIIA body armor?

This is a dangerous bill simply because it bans a firearm by name under the guise that its rounds in theory can go through a normal LEO's vest. what's next? AR Pistols shoot "armored piercing rounds" if the definition of AP is the ability to go through an officers vest.

I have not seen any tests on the subject but what about a 500 S&W MAG?

stingray2100 · February 12, 2013, 02:00 PM

Both the FNH five-seven pistol and the P90 carbine where designed with the intention to penetrate soft body armor. And they both do it very well with very little recoil.

can the 500SW penetrate IIIA soft armor. Yes it can, but with the amount of recoil you sure need to make it count. if you miss your recovery time is going to be high. With the FNH pistol and carbine with almost no recoil and a capacity of 30 and 50 rounds you have a very effective defensive duo.

what good is a high caliber if you cannot manage to get on target fast?

**Brian Pfleuger** · February 12, 2013, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stingray2100

can the 500SW penetrate IIIA soft armor. Yes it can, but with the amount of recoil you sure need to make it count. if you miss your recovery time is going to be high. With the FNH pistol and carbine with almost no recoil and a capacity of 30 and 50 rounds you have a very effective defensive duo.

Somehow, I doubt that any thinking even remotely along these lines is responsible for choosing one gun to ban over another.

It's more like "Revolvers aren't scary. People of olden times used them 100 years ago. That means they're weak and can't hurt people. This gun is black and scary and I found an internet article that says it shoots through 8 inches of depleted uranium.... we should ban it."

Dr Big Bird PhD · February 12, 2013, 02:31 PM

Wouldn't this be a back door ban for Civilian owned PS90s, since they use the same cartridge?

SPEMack618 · February 12, 2013, 02:38 PM

Already a ban on AP pistol ammo.

So, therefore the FN FiveseveN is nothing more than an overpriced .22 magnum mouse gun.

And it is on the chopping block, not that I think this bill will go anywhere. One of my Fraternity Brothers opined that the FiveseveN was the Glock of the 2000s. Instead of that invisible non-sense, we now have the "it goes through bullet proof vests" outcry.

Scary times.

Patriot86 · February 12, 2013, 02:48 PM

From Wikipedia for that its worth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7%...mm#Controversy

Quote:

In early 2005, the pistol was subject to intense controversy in the United States after the Brady Campaign stated that commercially available SS192 ammunition penetrated a Level IIA Kevlar vest in testing.[50][52] The National Rifle Association (NRA) shortly countered the Brady Campaign's claim by pointing out that the gun control group may not have adhered to standard testing procedures, and that FN only offers armor-piercing varieties of the 5.7×28mm cartridge to military and law enforcement customers.[15][52] Varieties offered to civilians are classified by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) as not armor-piercing, and it was stated that the SS192 and SS196 cartridge variations were unable to penetrate various types of Kevlar vests in tests conducted by FNH USA.[24]

Also looks like the antis have been trying to push this bill every other year since 2004.

Webleymkv · February 12, 2013, 02:49 PM

Quote:

testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians.

This is the most worrisome part as many handguns can penetrate body armor depending on the caliber and the level of the body armor. For example, level IIA body armor is not rated against .357 Magnum ammunition and level II is only rated against .357 Magnum ammunition with JSP bullets. It is entirely possible that a .357 Magnum loaded with a non-expanding bullet like FMJ or LSWC might be able to penetrate level IIA or level II armor. Likewise, only level IIIA and up is rated for .44 Magnum and .357 Sig ammunition and only level III and up is rated for centerfire rifle cartridges (think AR and AK pistols and Thompson Center handguns).

The insidious thing about this is that it isn't specified which level of body armor will be tested against. For all we know, they could take an old flak jacket, which was never meant to protect against bullets, and ban any handgun that will shoot through it.

adamc · February 12, 2013, 04:14 PM

after reading the wiki info,,, it appears Engel & Co. is at it again..
it looks to have been introduced several times before..

keep throwing poo against the wall until it sticks..

This time however, the media and the anti's have the upper hand..
so it may just very well stick...

Punisher_1 · February 12, 2013, 05:31 PM

So if the protection level of an officers vest is used as the criteria to ban then whats to stop them from choosing a lower level of protection vest as the standard to increase the weapons they want eliminated? This is how they will try to succeed by using things like "officer safety" to further their goals. Alot of politicians are lawyers so they know how to manipulate verbage to achieve goals.

Patriot86 · February 12, 2013, 05:45 PM

Quote:

after reading the wiki info,,, it appears Engel & Co. is at it again..
it looks to have been introduced several times before..

keep throwing poo against the wall until it sticks..

This time however, the media and the anti's have the upper hand..
so it may just very well stick...

The media will always have the upper hand so long as it is a single minded far far far left agenda driven machine. The antis do not have the upper hand though.

They tried like heck for an AWB 2.0 and when it became painfully obvious that idea was DOA before the bill was even published you started to hear more and more talk about universal background checks and a little bit about just banning high capacity magazines.

Barring another Sandy Hook like event an AWB is probably on the back burner until after the 2014 elections. However the anti gunners can't go away empty handed into election season so they will go for the low hanging fruit, universal background checks, "enhanced" background checks and maybe stuff like the above banning specific firearms like the FN 57.

Come and take it. · February 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

what if the bad guy is wearing body armor?

Mike40-11 · February 15, 2013, 11:33 AM

7.62x25 penetrates even better. But don't tell anyone or they'll be banning WWII ammo.

hermannr · February 15, 2013, 04:58 PM

Shosh....Don't talk about the 7.62X25...cheap ammo is getting harder to come by lately..

I like my CZ52 it's fun to shoot.

vranasaurus · February 15, 2013, 05:20 PM

When you inform some people that just about every rifle cartridge used for hunting and target shooting will penetrate soft body armor they look at you like you have something growing out of your forehead.

Next thing you know a remington 700 in .308 win. will be called an "armor piercing cop killer rifle."

February 12, 2013, 01:01 PM	#1
HarrySchell Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2007 Location: South CA Posts: 505	HR 538: Ban on the FN Five-seveN pistol H.R. 538: To protect the Nation’s law enforcement officers by banning the Five-seveN Pistol and 5.7 x 28mm SS190, SS192, SS195LF, SS196, and SS197 cartridges, testing handguns and ammunition for capability to penetrate body armor, and prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, or purchase of such handguns or ammunition by civilians. Introduced:Feb 06, 2013 (113th Congress, 2013–2015) Sponsor:Rep. Eliot Engel [D-NY16][/B] Probably won't go very far, but who knows? __________________ Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world — and never will. — Mark Twain

February 12, 2013, 01:16 PM	#2
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,144	I always thought that only certain, civilian non-legal loads of 5.7mm ammo were capable of penetrating level IIIA body armor? This is a dangerous bill simply because it bans a firearm by name under the guise that its rounds in theory can go through a normal LEO's vest. what's next? AR Pistols shoot "armored piercing rounds" if the definition of AP is the ability to go through an officers vest. I have not seen any tests on the subject but what about a 500 S&W MAG? __________________ "....The swords of others will set you your limits".

February 12, 2013, 02:00 PM	#3
stingray2100 Member Join Date: March 30, 2012 Location: Georgetown, Texas Posts: 51	FNH personal protection firearms Both the FNH five-seven pistol and the P90 carbine where designed with the intention to penetrate soft body armor. And they both do it very well with very little recoil. can the 500SW penetrate IIIA soft armor. Yes it can, but with the amount of recoil you sure need to make it count. if you miss your recovery time is going to be high. With the FNH pistol and carbine with almost no recoil and a capacity of 30 and 50 rounds you have a very effective defensive duo. what good is a high caliber if you cannot manage to get on target fast? __________________ Invest a day with the Citadel, learn to be safe for a lifetime.come visit us at: www.citadelinstitute.com Check our Facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Citade...92409560873257

February 12, 2013, 02:31 PM	#5
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 672	Wouldn't this be a back door ban for Civilian owned PS90s, since they use the same cartridge? __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

February 12, 2013, 02:38 PM	#6
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Boy Scout Camp Posts: 1,260	Already a ban on AP pistol ammo. So, therefore the FN FiveseveN is nothing more than an overpriced .22 magnum mouse gun. And it is on the chopping block, not that I think this bill will go anywhere. One of my Fraternity Brothers opined that the FiveseveN was the Glock of the 2000s. Instead of that invisible non-sense, we now have the "it goes through bullet proof vests" outcry. Scary times. __________________ "Growing up as both a Southern and the son of a child of the '50s, I was imprinted with several things that have long stuck with me. The F-86 Saber Jet was the finest fighter ever flown, the National League is always superior, and Leslie Coffelt was the finest revovler shooter since Mr. Ed."

February 12, 2013, 04:14 PM	#9
adamc Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Location: Stalingrad Connecticut Posts: 211	after reading the wiki info,,, it appears Engel & Co. is at it again.. it looks to have been introduced several times before.. keep throwing poo against the wall until it sticks.. This time however, the media and the anti's have the upper hand.. so it may just very well stick... __________________ ** NRA Life Member *** Connecticut was the Cradle of the Gun Industry, NOW it is just a Pine Box, Courtesy of our Governor "Chairman MAO Malloy"

February 12, 2013, 05:31 PM	#10
Punisher_1 Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2012 Location: Florida Posts: 109	So if the protection level of an officers vest is used as the criteria to ban then whats to stop them from choosing a lower level of protection vest as the standard to increase the weapons they want eliminated? This is how they will try to succeed by using things like "officer safety" to further their goals. Alot of politicians are lawyers so they know how to manipulate verbage to achieve goals. Last edited by Punisher_1; February 12, 2013 at 07:32 PM.

February 13, 2013, 02:04 PM	#12
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 987	what if the bad guy is wearing body armor?

February 15, 2013, 11:33 AM	#13
Mike40-11 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 767	7.62x25 penetrates even better. But don't tell anyone or they'll be banning WWII ammo.

February 15, 2013, 04:58 PM	#14
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 691	Shosh....Don't talk about the 7.62X25...cheap ammo is getting harder to come by lately.. I like my CZ52 it's fun to shoot.

February 15, 2013, 05:20 PM	#15
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,145	When you inform some people that just about every rifle cartridge used for hunting and target shooting will penetrate soft body armor they look at you like you have something growing out of your forehead. Next thing you know a remington 700 in .308 win. will be called an "armor piercing cop killer rifle."