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Old May 30, 2013, 06:34 AM   #1
TheBear
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500gr bullets in a ruger no1 45-70

I use 500gr lead bullets in my uberti sharps rifle with great results, now i would like to buy a ruger no1 for hunting (the sharps is just too long and heavy for that) and i want to use the same load for that.
The ruger no1 has a 1:20" twist and im afraid that could be too slow for stabilizing 500gr bullets.
What do you think?
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Old May 30, 2013, 09:25 AM   #2
PetahW
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.

Having had & hunted with both Ruger a #1 & a Ruger #3 in .45-70, I think a 500gr boolit in one will quickly persuade a shooter to drop down in boolit weight. .


Although YMMV, IMHO it was MUCH more comfortable to shoot 350gr slugs out of those relatively lightweight rifles - especially the #3, with it's sharp/squared-off comb.



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Old May 30, 2013, 10:37 AM   #3
Jim Watson
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Well, the US Army thought a 22 twist would stabilize a 500 grain bullet.
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Old May 30, 2013, 10:47 AM   #4
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People shoot 500 gr bullets out of Ruger #1s with good results. Fortunately, recoil pads come in super sizes, because that bullet will definitely explain that whole concept of "equal and opposite" to you if you choose to use them.
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Old May 30, 2013, 01:54 PM   #5
TheBear
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Quote:
that bullet will definitely explain that whole concept of "equal and opposite" to you if you choose to use them.
well, as i said, i already use 500gr lead bullets in my uberti sharps, i can handle the recoil.

so what youre saying is the no1 can stabilize a 500gr bullet.
thanks
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Old May 30, 2013, 04:24 PM   #6
Paul B.
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I would strongly suggest that if and when you decide to go that route you have a dummy round made up with your bullet of choice to check out the rifle's throat. My #1 45-70 has a long enough throat to properly seat the bullet (Lee 500 gr.) in the crimp groove. I've heard Ruger had gone to a shorter throat in the newer guns so you just might want to check that out. My gun is one of the red pad models and I've never replace the skinny pad with something better. I collect #1's so prefer to leave them as original as possible. Considering the load level you can reach in a #1, yes recoil is quite tout bur nowhere near as bad as 500 gr. at 1800 FPS from a Ruger #3. Just ask me how I know. Currently, when I'm in the mood to shoot my #1 45-70 with 500 gr. bullets, I load closer to the 1500 FPS level. Serious arthritis in my right shoulds starts to scream bloody murder after even a few of those rounds these day.
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Old May 30, 2013, 08:38 PM   #7
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What are you hunting with 500 grains? I've got a #1 and I use 350 grain Remingtons for deer out to 150 yards.
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Old May 31, 2013, 11:04 AM   #8
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I had planned on doing a bison hunt here in Arizona. Just never drew a tag.
Now at 75 I'm a bit too beat up to want to. There's a ranch in New Mexico i might look at next year that does hunts and maybe I might take a look at what they have to offer and if the prices are reasonable.
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Old May 31, 2013, 12:31 PM   #9
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I've had a No.3 in .45-70 for about 30 years. Some nice, previous owner fitted it with a thick ventilated recoil pad. And, I know why! Got a box of his handloads (50) with the gun, and he loaded HOT! Hot as in the 350gr SP @ 2200fps! (yes, I clocked them, and they are that fast!) 30 years later, and I still have 8 or 9 rounds of that ammo left! In the light No.3, recoil is ...energetic.

The majority of my shooting has been with cast bullets in the 400gr range, usually at standard BP speeds. Not unpleasant, even in the light No.3.

The No.1 is heavier (have a No.1 in .375H&H, and I swear that thing weighs twice what the no.3 does!). So that will help with the recoil, compared to the No.3, probably kick a little more than the Sharps with the same loads, but stock fit to the shooter will be more significant in the felt recoil than the actual energy between the No.1 and the Sharps.

Assuming your rifle has the throat for them (and most do) the 500gr should work fine from a No.1. Although having recovered 400gr hard cast from over two feet deep in a tree, I don't think that there is anything that really NEEDS a 500gr bullet. Buffalo? ok, the 500 grain won't hurt your performance any, so use it if you like. The 400gr will get the job done too, so, personally, I shoot 400s out of my No.3 and save the 500s for my .458 Winchester.

Note that the US Army used the 500gr bullet in its "infantry" load, but used the 405gr (with a slightly reduced powder charge) in its "cavalry" ammo. The 500grainers out of a carbine do kick a bit!
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Old May 31, 2013, 12:35 PM   #10
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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AS Paul B said, check that throat length.

Mine was so short that it wouldn't chamber some factory 45/70 ammo. Rem or Win, I forget.

As per bullet weight, I tried a 355gr and a velocity of 2300fps and the Wide Flat Nose (WFN) bullet just made toooooo big of a hole for me. Not minced meat like with a expanding bullet, just simply meat and bone gone out the other side.

The 355gr did have some chambering issues because of the bullet nose profile and I had the throat opened a tiny bit. Zero problems with my cuttent 465gr bullet profile

I am using a WFN 465gr at 1650fps with great results on deer and elk.

Have shot a few 550gr +/- just for fun but will not go there for serious hunting, but just for a bit of a thrill when out with "friends". No chambering problems with this bullet profile.

My rifle is the RUGER #1s with the 22" barrel and I find it to be a joy to carry in the woods. For bench testing/load development I use a sissy bag over the shoulder and have no problems during extended shooting sessions. Zero problems in hunting positions and hunting situations.

I did however, try the rifle with factory iron sights and did find the rifle to be VERY!!!!!!!!!!! painful to shoot because of the low head position needed and the beating my face took from mid range loads. The plan from the start was to scope the rifle, and with the higher head position that problem is gone.

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Old May 31, 2013, 01:51 PM   #11
PetahW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBear

well, as i said, i already use 500gr lead bullets in my uberti sharps, i can handle the recoil.
You might want to compare the weight of your Sharps (typically 9-10 lbs) with a .45-70 Ruger #1 (7 to 7-1/2 lbs), which makes a big difference in felt recoil, as does stock config.


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Old June 3, 2013, 10:58 AM   #12
reynolds357
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Bear, the Number one will recoil about the same as the Sharps if you load them the same way, but you can load the Ruger 1 a whole heck of a lot hotter. For all practical purposes, the .45-70 in a #1 is a .458 Win Mag.
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Old June 5, 2013, 10:57 AM   #13
TheBear
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Quote:
What are you hunting with 500 grains?
Simple answer: Everything, as long as its within a 250 yard range.
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Old June 5, 2013, 11:11 AM   #14
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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Yep Bear, I'm with you on that.

Do I need a 465gr WFN cast to take a deer or elk with my 45/70?

Not in reality, however the performance is just soooooo much better then with the 355gr with it's over the top meat destruction, why in the world wouldn't I use the heavier bullet?

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Old June 5, 2013, 02:15 PM   #15
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I don't have a reference that lists the Sharps rifle, but the Ruger (no1 & no3) as well as the Marlin 1895 all use a 1-20" rifling twist. Probably so does your Sharps.

The easy way to check is to use a snug fitting patch (so it turns in the rifling), and run it down the bore, watching until you get one complete turn. Mark the rod, and then remove it and measure the length to the full turn mark. That will give you the one turn in X inches rifling twist.

If your Sharps has a 1-20, then expect the same potential from the Ruger, when it comes to handling bullets of 500gr. An inch or two faster or slower doesn't mean that the Ruger will not handle those bullets well, just that it might behave a little differently. For instance, if your Sharps has a 1-22" barrel, vs the Ruger 1-20, you might get similar results with 500gr bullets, but you might not. Probably you will.

There are several calibers where a range of rifling twist rates will perform satisfactorily with the normal range of bullets, but some twists will not do well with certain weights. How large this range is, depends on which bullets (and calibers) you are looking at.

.30 caliber rifles perform well with twists ranging from 1-9 to 1-12. Most common is 1-10" or 1-12". .22 centerfires are more...specific, depending on the preferred bullet to be used. .22Hornets, shooting light 40-45gr bullets (standard) are 1-16". .222Rem, .22-250, etc., where bullets are expected to be in the 50-55gr range use 1-12 or more commonly 1-14" twists.

.223 rifles use a variety of twists, 1-12 or 1-14 used in rifles intended for varmint shooting with 50-60gr bullets, faster twists of 1-10, are used in some (Mini 14), and specialty rifles (AR variants mostly) intended to use the newer heavier (and longer) 77gr, 80, or even 90gr bullets use 1-9, 1-8 or even 1-7" twists.m There is no free lunch, however, and twist rates at the extreme ends of the ranges do not do well with bullets from the other end of the range.

This is more important in smaller bores, as the ratio between bullet weight and bullet length is more pronounced than it is in larger calibers. In .45 caliber, the difference in bullet length between a 400 and a 500gr bullet is not as much, proportionally, as the difference between a 45gr and a 77gr .22 cal bullet. A twist that works well to stabilize a 400gr .45 will do fine with a 500gr .45, but a twist that does well with a 50gr .22 seldom does well with am 80gr bullet. For example, I have a .22-250 that is 3/4" with 53gr match bullets, but only 1.5" or larger with the Sierra 63gr semispitzer, because the 1-14" twist is border line for the longer heavier bullets. .22 are picky.

.45s are much more ..tolerant in that regard. I believe that the Ruger No1 (or no3) will do acceptably well with 500gr bullets, and if not (possible, but unlikely), it will be something else about the rifle other than the twist rate that causes it.
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Old June 5, 2013, 04:24 PM   #16
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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Good info, thanks 44AMP

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