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Old February 9, 2013, 08:55 AM   #1
vildsvin
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Help please-anyone know these Colt models?

Help on models of these please

Kindly ask for some information on these 3 i bought yesterday for some
restoration projekt and long nights in the garage.

Are they belgian, american and what models,years etc ? Woud apprecite some help from all kind colt experts out there.

From above.
1 Rich engraving but no special motive. Numbers match 191143
2 Navy engraving, ships etc. Marked AMERICAN on barrel. Number do not match. Looks like number10463 and 16129
3 Navy engraving, ships etc. Number 16933

Thank you
Best regards
Carl Johan
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File Type: jpg revolver.jpg (249.1 KB, 186 views)
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Old February 9, 2013, 09:57 AM   #2
Bob Wright
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Definately NOT Colts. Pretty crude looking guns, don't even appear to be Belgian made.

Almost look like one-of-a-kind made for theatrics use.

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Old February 9, 2013, 10:03 AM   #3
vildsvin
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Thats strange and interesting. How did you figure that out? Could you please be so kind to explain why you are sure its no colts and not made in belgium.

Several parts on revolver 2 and 3 in picture are the same as colt 1851 but
i do not know more.

And what about the theatrics use you mentioned?
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Old February 9, 2013, 11:33 AM   #4
vildsvin
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Revolver number 1 has the
black powder proof for rifle, the one
from Liege 1811-1892, also an "N" stamped
on several places, ans also a proofmark that
looks like the proofmark from the London
proof house, used from 1637.

Any of you kind experts redy to help?
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Old February 9, 2013, 01:31 PM   #5
Bob Wright
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Carl,
This just from my observation of your one photograph:

All three guns have triggers that appear too long and not correctly shaped.

The middle gun the cylinder appears too long, out of proportion to the rest of the gun. The trigger is far too long, and the trigger guard is very poorly shaped. the grips are very poorly made and fitted, and the backstrap is too rounded at the butt.

The bottom gun the hammer spur is too near vertical. the cylinder appears too long, and again the grips are very poorly made. There appears to be a common square nut embedded in the wood.

Colt revovlers always have been very clearly marked with the company name and address, which these lack. Belgian made copies were far more faithful to the Colt patterns, and are clearly marked "Made in Belgium."

As to theatrics, some gunmakers made guns especially for stage and film use and did not need to be as precisely accurate as to detail as the audience was not able to see the guns close-up. As long as they looked close enough, and maybe even fired when needed, that was good enough.

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Old February 9, 2013, 01:49 PM   #6
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Here is a photo of a modern replica (Made by Uberti) of a Colt Navy:

Can't get my images to come in. Google Colt Navy and go to "images." Sorry about that.



True, this is a brand new gun, but notice the proportions of the cylinder to the frame, the curve of the hammer, and the flare at the backstrap. this replica has brass trigger guard and backstrap, while the original Navey usually had steel parts.

Hope this helps.

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Old February 9, 2013, 03:30 PM   #7
vildsvin
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Thank you kindly Mr Wright.

They seem to be used heavily and i can not imagine
the be used for theatrics use, since there are so many
english proof stams on revolver number one.

The number 2 and 3 i started to restore but number one is a bit
tricky since i do not know what model it supposed to be and if
its a copy what model they trided to copy.

I do most parts with my lathe and my other gear but
it would be easier to get some reproduction parts.

Revolver 2 and 3 is caliber 36 but revolver number 1 has
0.40 inch so that makes it even stranger.

Any ideas on revolver number one?
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Old February 9, 2013, 05:27 PM   #8
Bob Wright
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Revolver No. 1(topmost) is the most accurate looking to me. However, you say it is .40 caliber, which means it would not be a copy of a Colt Navy. Nor would it be a copy of a Dragoon, which would have had round barrels.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help, but the guns appear to have been so modified over the years as to no longer be recognized as to their original form. The top gun has had its barrel shortened at some time, as there is not latch for the rammer.

When, and if, you do restore these guns, what are you intending to do with them?

Bob Wright
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Old February 9, 2013, 05:27 PM   #9
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There were a lot of "clones" made during the time that Colt was producing C & B revolvers. It could be anybody's guess as to what these are. Not only were there other companies such as Metropolitan but also they were being cloned in other countries as well. These three are certainly interesting regardless of what they are. I hope you'll be able to come up with something on them.

In regards to Belgium Colts, I have a Belgium Colt SAA in 32-20 that I inherited from my g-uncle. He was a traveling rep for International Harvester and he carried it with him on his travels - still have the original cheap store bought holster and cartridge belt that was with it. On that particular revolver, there are no markings whatsoever except for 32 WCF on the underside of the barrel and Belgium proofs on the cylinder. Quality? Well, certainly not a Colt but it wasn't too bad either.

Bob makes some excellent points on the profiles of these in regards to original Colts. Obviously, unless these are really "faked" well, they have seen a lot of use. Let's face it, pistols were utility pieces to be carried and used at that time. Not everyone could afford a Colt, just like my g-uncle couldn't - so clones certainly served a purpose. Regardless of what these turn out to be, I think they are neat revolvers - now if only they could talk! Good luck in your research!
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Old February 9, 2013, 05:31 PM   #10
Bob Wright
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Maybe if you would post photos of the guns, individually, partially disassembled, it would help sort things out some. Maybe.

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Old February 12, 2013, 07:35 AM   #11
4V50 Gary
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Spain comes to mind. I'm moving this to the BP forum so our resident experts may chime in.
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Old February 12, 2013, 09:47 AM   #12
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^^ Thanks Gary

These are obviously not Colts, just as seen from a distance. #2 is especially striking as not being even remotely close to a Colt or authentic-pattern Colt copy. #3 has a grip frame shape that does not resemble an authentic Colt or an authentic Colt-pattern copy.

Pretty obviously they are "guns", with the suggestion that they are theaterical is not one that likely has much merit. There would be no reason to go to the trouble to specially make what could be bought. Percussion revolvers were a dime a dozen worldwide at one time. Anyone wanting one for the stage would just buy one.

Detailed pics would be useful, including proof marks, etc. Four of five pics per gun would be the best, if you can manage that. Be an interesting study.


Willie

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Old February 12, 2013, 10:40 AM   #13
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Willie


Not 100% true about the ways of the theater. My sister was a theater design major in collage and for the last 10 years she had moved on and continued to run the department as well as work with larger theaters and movie production.

You would not BELIEVE the lengths her dull whited "bosses" go to for "props" that are ridiculously out of spec (and historical correctness) when the correct weapon can be readily had. When doing a full blown over the top theatrical production of little woman, her producer said in a prop and wardrobing pow wow that "it does't matter what kind of "gun" the the officer has! he should have a rifle for more dramatic impact!" He proceed to pay through the nose (by that I mean he paid more than a real original rifle could be bought) and ordered a train wreak of a down right pathetic "non working replica-movie grade, rifle, brown bess" For a union civil war officer to carry!? From a prop warehouse in California.

Needless to say...the same goons would pass a well made Italian 51 colt navy for $150 to buy a poorly made mutly resin franken pistol for three times that out of pure ignorance.

I wouldn't doubt looking at those that they could of been prop guns.
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Old February 12, 2013, 10:45 AM   #14
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Hopefully you can open the chart in this link:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...42261806,d.dmQ
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Old February 12, 2013, 11:24 AM   #15
Willie Sutton
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Not 100% true about the ways of the theater. My sister was a theater design major in collage and for the last 10 years she had moved on and continued to run the department as well as work with larger theaters and movie production.


I've been involved with prop rental for some time (most recently all of the US and Russian combat swimmers diving equipment that was CGI modelled by Treyarch for "Call of Duty, Black Ops I and II" were provided by me, via the prop-house "Sacred Sword" that does things like equip Saving Private Ryan. Trust me.. the prop house collections are huge and are very interesting to poke thru.

What they spend on rentals when they need something specialized like I provide is... well....



What you say is true to a degree now. The cited revolvers (above) are obviously antique... and this was not true then.

I respectfully submit that more information in the form of detailed photos of features and markings are the sole source of data needed for further clarification.


Best,

Willie

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Old February 13, 2013, 12:19 AM   #16
4V50 Gary
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Speaking of Props, the SF Opera made rubber AK-47s for that production. The stage hands made one extra and put it in a display case in their workshop. Bold red letters read something like: Open In Case of Emergency or For Emergency Use Only.
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Old February 13, 2013, 01:26 PM   #17
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I vote for Belgian Manufacture. Belgian manufacturers of the mid and late 19th century were often like the Spanish Manufacturers of the 1920's, producing large quantities of copies of successful pistols of varying quallity.

The trigger guards and grips are reminiscent of styles used on cheap single and double action western style cartridge revolvers with trade names of "Texas Ranger" and "Cowboy".
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Old February 13, 2013, 05:29 PM   #18
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I vote for " what ever they were , they have been worked over so much that the actual identity may be lost unless proof marks can be found ". They are indeed strange looking firearms. the one in the middle looks to have a home made aluminum trigger guard
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Old February 13, 2013, 11:45 PM   #19
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They are very interesting though....but I believe my "pony Boy" cap pistols I toted EVERYWHERE as a young boy may of been better quality. Come to think of it...while I'm sure they aren't...they kinda look like they are die-cast with the look of those pins and all.

Hope you can get this mystery solved OP, they are pretty unique.
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Old February 14, 2013, 12:37 AM   #20
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You know, the more I study the pictures, they all look die-cast?????? Perhaps made to look old. Don't know, but maybe made to look old for decorating a wall , perhaps in a western themed restaurant. Just looking at pictures, it is hard to tell, but I'm beginning to think they are props. Of course I'm probably wrong, but there's enough wrong with the last two to make me suspicious.
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Old February 14, 2013, 07:09 PM   #21
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I did notice that the center gun is somewhat different where the barrel meets the frame.

The barrel lug is rabbeted to form sort of an interlock between barrel and frame. I have not seen that before. Usually they are two flat surfaces with pins to orient them and prevent movement once the wedge is in place.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:13 PM   #22
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The bottom one looks like the barrel is pointing up at an angle. May just be the pics. The top one also looks this way to me but not as severe. I do know one thing. I WOULD NOT even attempt to fire them things, you just may not get your hand back.
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