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Old February 11, 2013, 07:18 PM   #26
stephen426
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I never cared for the feel of revolver grips, especially one that is so skinny. I feel that semi-autos feel so much better in my hand and point so much more naturally.
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Old February 11, 2013, 09:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nate45
You should know how it goes all too well Mr.Borland
Indeed. When shooting a revolver, and mandatory head shots and/or steel are involved, the potential for disaster is high, and the payoff low, so I tend to be conservative.
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Old February 11, 2013, 10:19 PM   #28
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Indeed. When shooting a revolver, and mandatory head shots and/or steel are involved, the potential for disaster is high, and the payoff low, so I tend to be conservative.
Not if you thumb cock it with your weak hand's thumb. Then the revolver, say a good S&W, will drive nails into planks at 10 yards.

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Old February 11, 2013, 10:42 PM   #29
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And I thought I was the only one who did Mozambiques with a SA revo!

Never been timed, I do need a better holster.

215 gr LSWC @ appx 1K FPS in shoots nice, hits hard and is very accurate in the 4 5/8" Ruger Flattop .44 Special.
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Old February 11, 2013, 11:19 PM   #30
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I really like the idea of the two shot 'Mozambique' if that is really what it is. I mean after all its a .41 Magnum with full magnum 210 grain Gold Dots. One in the wish bone, one in the teeth should work. Even slowing the whole exercise down to 2 seconds, for two shots, should be rapid enough, especially if one draws from concealment and has the element of surprise.

I know its becoming a bit of a cliche, thanks largely to the internet, but Clint Smith is fond of saying, how he's never seen a timer IRL gunfight. If a man drew a .357 Mag, .44 Special, .41 Mag, etc from concealment and fired one shot at the sternum and one at the head of a Bad Guy and it all happened in about 2 seconds... chances are that it could work to extricate ones self from a tight spot.


The two shot drill might work with any handgun round. Any of the ones picture above will penetrate to the heart/spine and brain. A two shot 'Mozambique' might work if the chips are down.

Some might be asking why take the head shot too, why not just shoot center mass. Its because handgun rounds are puny, in the whole scheme of things, all of them. It takes time for even a shot through the heart to have an effect. When the other man is holding a firearm in his hand, switching him off with a brain shot is very desirable, even though as Mr. Borland intimated, its sometimes a low percentage endeavour. Which is why one shoots COM first, to guarantee a hit, with one or two shots, then you go for the head. Having it all happen in as short a time frame as possible, is also desirable for obvious reasons.
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Last edited by nate45; February 12, 2013 at 12:46 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old February 11, 2013, 11:26 PM   #31
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What kind of lunatic carries a magnum N frame, with magnum loads...and a nickel one at THAT??













qualification target


I swear Nate, you remind me of myself 20 years ago Just FWIW, the old 175 grain Silvertip is a great anti-personnel .41 load, when you can find them.
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Old February 11, 2013, 11:29 PM   #32
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You're 20 years older than me? I'm 48 by the way.
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Old February 11, 2013, 11:43 PM   #33
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OK, not quite ten. I just got an earlier start.
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Old February 11, 2013, 11:57 PM   #34
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I shot my first S&W Combat Masterpiece when I was five and had my own, paid for by me, bought by my father, 4 inch blue Colt Trooper Mk III when I was 14. I ordered my copy of No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan that same year.

I grew up ten miles from the Rio Grande River too. When Deaf Smith quotes Bill Jordan and says "It will do to ride the river" it may sound hokie to some, but it makes me a little misty eyed.

Bill Jordan, Charles Askins, etc didn't have cell phones, satellites tracking them and helicopter gunships on call. When they came across a group of bandits, they were on their own. A fast draw and well placed shot might be all that saved their lives.

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Old February 12, 2013, 07:44 PM   #35
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Amen Nate!

In one CHL class I taught a old geezer had a 3 inch Lew Horten stainless .41 Magnum as his qualification gun. I told him he could use my Glock and that way be able to carry semi-autos as well as revolvers just in case he needed to.

But he said no. He did the whole qualification using Winchester Silvertip .41 magnums! And he was near the top in score.

Later he let me shoot his .41, first one I had ever shot (and still the only .41 I have shot.)

Well let me tell you guys, that old man could take care of himself. He knew that .41 well and aimed strait. Lots of others would get the shakes during qualification but not him.

Both he and his gun 'will do to ride the river'.

I know we all like these snazzy semi-autos and super fast double taps, transitions, speed reloads, and Mozambiques, but they are all rather minor stuff. It's those first few shots that matter the most.

Remember that. If you can't hit well and fast in those first rounds the rest won't matter.

And as Bill Jordan said.... 'Take your time, fast.'

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Old February 12, 2013, 09:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
What kind of lunatic carries a magnum N frame, with magnum loads...and a nickel one at THAT??
I just acquired a stainless one and a simply rugged holster......But mine is 44 magnum and my new EDC!
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Old February 13, 2013, 02:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanuk

44 magnum and my new EDC!
Very nice Nanuk!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
And as Bill Jordan said.... 'Take your time, fast.'
Its like auto racing, sometimes you have to slow down, to go faster. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but its true. Two well placed shots in two seconds, beat three poorly placed ones in a second and a half.
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Old February 13, 2013, 08:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
What kind of lunatic carries a magnum N frame, with magnum loads...and a nickel one at THAT??
I've carried a nickel N-Frame before (though it couldn't fire magnums).



I've also carried a blued and stainless N-Frame with magnums as well.



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Old February 13, 2013, 06:49 PM   #39
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Well if I was to pack one of my N frames..



The 3 inch 625-3 .45 ACP, with .45 Supers, would be my pick. I've had that gun for maybe 10 years now and I have maybe 450 .45 Supers sitting around!

Good 230gr JHP at 1000 fps (I chronoed it from that very gun) will do the trick.

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Old February 14, 2013, 01:02 PM   #40
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Those are some nice N frames guys's!

I did not feel outgunned with a 6 gun in the 80's and 90's I think i will be fine today. Only hits count, and big bore magnums hit harder than anything else in a practical carry package. An N frame Smith weighs very close to a L frame, loaded steel 1911 or a fully loaded Glock 21.

My poor wife just does not understand my fascination with Performance center revolvers.
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:11 PM   #41
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I've always wondered if it would be more effective to reverse the Mozambique Drill....one shot to the chest to anchor, then two to the head....

Thoughts?.....
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Old February 14, 2013, 10:37 PM   #42
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seeker_two,

I've always wondered why not skip the formalities and just go for the head. That way, if it's a nutjob with a bullet resistant vest, well you bypass it automatically. Keep the chest shots only for when you have to hip shoot.

Always practice head shots if you use your sights. No two this, one that or whatever. Chest if hip/retention shooting.

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Old February 14, 2013, 11:09 PM   #43
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I knew a DEA agent back in the 1980s, that was one of their top dangerous mission men. A group of us were discussing the merits of 9mm vs .45/.40, etc. It was 1986-87 right around the time of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. He said "It doesn't matter which one you use, if you shoot them three times in the head." Not very politically correct, but accurate in what the effect would be.

Most all of us think in terms of COM and rightly so, but when the chips are down and your adversary is 2 yards away, already holding his pistol in his hand...maybe going straight for the head is the thing to do. Its what we would do with our scoped rifle to stop a dangerous actor. I think that incorporating a close range, go for the CNS(their brain)/stop them right now drill into our training, sounds wise. I mean, I do already, but not intensively and a lot of my head shooting, in addition to the standard Mozambique, is placing precise, miss the hostage type shots.

So I'm definitely going to work on drawing and going straight for the head, tomorrow.
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:25 AM   #44
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I advocate stitching them up the centerline, starting from the hip if you're close and going to supported fire if the problem isn't resolved by then.
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Old February 15, 2013, 03:54 AM   #45
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Quote:
He said "It doesn't matter which one you use, if you shoot them three times in the head."
That's not actually true. Jim Cirillo was fond of telling the story of two of his teammates, who were on their way into a stakeout when they got mugged. When the dust settled, each of them had emptied their revolvers -- 6 shot and 5 shot, respectively -- into the bad guy at bad breath distance. All 11 rounds of .38 spl lodged in the suspect's head or neck.

The man was unconscious and looked dead. One of the officers stood over the body and radio'd in a description: "Suspect is a black male, appears to be, uh, uh, 32 years old --" Just then, the 'dead' guy sat up and said, "Sh-- man, I'm only 25!"

Then he asked for a handkerchief, because he had "something" in his nose. When he blew his nose, a bullet plopped out onto the sidewalk.

He walked to the ambulance.

There are no guarantees in a gunfight. Zero, none, nada. There are things you can do to improve your odds and things you can do to make your odds worse. But if you go into it thinking, "This is how it's going to be..." you're likely to get bitten by something you never expected.

No magic bullets. No magic guns. No magic shot placements. Just some that work better than others, most of the time.

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Old February 15, 2013, 05:43 AM   #46
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Sage advice pax

Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
There are no guarantees in a gunfight. Zero, none, nada. There are things you can do to improve your odds and things you can do to make your odds worse. But if you go into it thinking, "This is how it's going to be..." you're likely to get bitten by something you never expected.
I started to write in about the flesh and bone I've seen mangled by magnum projectiles and how deep and well they penetrate. How they are much more potent than the Lead Roundnose .38's the NYPD once used. Then I remembered the man I saw before with my own eyes, who got shot in the face with a .44 Magnum LSWC and kept going. His face looked just like the way you'd imagine/or have actually seen before, from being shot by a large caliber handgun, yet he kept going and survived.

Warning Image below is graphic

bullet wound.jpeg

The man above, not the one I mentioned, but another, looks like he should be dead, but there he sits, big as life. He could still pull a trigger.

So yes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
No magic bullets. No magic guns. No magic shot placements. Just some that work better than others, most of the time.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:34 PM   #47
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My cousin took 4 357 to the mid section, he is still alive. Shooter is in prison for life and 100 years. or so. Was 2 - 3 years ago, you can sure look it up.

Isnt any majic bullet.
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Old February 15, 2013, 06:12 PM   #48
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So, is "Grand Master" a term you give yourself or is it bestowd upon you???
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Old February 15, 2013, 07:19 PM   #49
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Grand Master is sort of like Grim_Reaper, only its based on actual accomplishments and not just imagination. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Actually it is a rank within combat shooting and other martial arts.

A few videos of Grand Masters in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A28y0zaPWx4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd_oMiDb-Ac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUDJ38mrVTo
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:46 PM   #50
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So, you gave it to your self!
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