The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 12, 2013, 02:48 PM   #26
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2012
Location: Oh, Jesus.
Posts: 201
OC in Chicago

I cannot wait to see some cowboy rig OC'ers on the Mag Mile in Chicago. I will weep with joy when that happens. I'd also love to get a team going to record interactions with the cops when they flip out and falsely arrest someone for doing just that. The cops here are succeptible to getting sued for millions! Several years ago some Wisconsinites OC'ers went to a restaurant and drew the attention of the cops. One fearless guy refused to answer a question or provide identification and was arrested. He sued and won, though, I don't know how much he sued for. Its practically free money at the city's expense.
On the other hand, some idiot thug will try to mug one of 'em of their pistol and claim to be the victim when they get shot.
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 03:11 PM   #27
gaseousclay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2010
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 869
Quote:
I am not a fan of open carry, especially poltically motivated open carry. I feel that it is unnessassarily provacative...
agreed. to me it's just another proverbial chest-thumping display that turns people off. it could also have a two pronged effect, if you're a criminal you're going to shoot the guy who you know has a gun, or, you'll garner unnecessary attention to yourself via the cops. doesn't seem like a very bright thing to do
gaseousclay is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 03:14 PM   #28
gaseousclay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2010
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 869
Quote:
One fearless guy refused to answer a question or provide identification and was arrested. He sued and won, though, I don't know how much he sued for. Its practically free money at the city's expense.
you mean at tax payer expense. who do you think pays for these petty lawsuits? I hate people that don't take personal responsibility for their actions.
gaseousclay is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 03:52 PM   #29
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
agreed. to me it's just another proverbial chest-thumping display that turns people off. it could also have a two pronged effect, if you're a criminal you're going to shoot the guy who you know has a gun, or, you'll garner unnecessary attention to yourself via the cops. doesn't seem like a very bright thing to do
Oh, puhleeeaase.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 03:56 PM   #30
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,712
gaseousclay:
Quote:
you mean at tax payer expense. who do you think pays for these petty lawsuits? I hate people that don't take personal responsibility for their actions.
Yep, tax payers that will get tired of their law enforcement not knowing the law, or breaking it, and costing them money. Hit 'em in the wallet. If I found out that my county law enforcers were losing my money by being unaware of the law, you think I'd be against the lawful person? Nope. I expect more from those I PAY !!!
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:02 PM   #31
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
Yep, tax payers that will get tired of their law enforcement not knowing the law, or breaking it, and costing them money.

And do what? Complain, write a nasty email?

Simple thing is guy files law suite, Judge slaps guy with fine for being a fool. Guy's fine pays for wasted tax payer dollars dealing with fool.

I was not raised to look a cop in the face and ignore his questions or refuse to cooperate with him. These guys all went in wearing their guns, fine. Someone calls the cops, fine, the cops come to check things out. That is their job guys. And this guy want's to be a fool and refuse to cooperate while the cops do their job.

Shoulda had his head thumped for being an idiot.

If any of you are one of these guys who open carries and has a buddy with a camera while you try to make a cop look bad while you push his buttons staying just inside the law yourself. Then you are part of the problem. I'd thump you on the head myself as a citizen.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:20 PM   #32
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
And do what? Complain, write a nasty email?
Look up Danladi Moore in Norfolk VA. He sued the city twice, and won twice. I don't blame him. I blame a corrupt police system that thought they were above pre-emptive state law. You see Danny as a fool, I see him as a man standing for his rights and abiding by the due processes of the law. His rights were violated, and he fixed the system. Norfolk city police were told to stand down, not only from the citizens, but from the state government. It works.

Quote:
I was not raised to look a cop in the face and ignore his questions or refuse to cooperate with him.
My momma never raised such a foolish child. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Quote:
Shoulda had his head thumped for being an idiot.
Wow you must realllly hate the bill of rights!

Quote:
If any of you are one of these guys who open carries and has a buddy with a camera while you try to make a cop look bad while you push his buttons staying just inside the law yourself. Then you are part of the problem. I'd thump you on the head myself as a citizen.
I sure hope you don't carry, concealed or otherwise. You are not all there!
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

Last edited by noelf2; February 12, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
noelf2 is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:25 PM   #33
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2012
Location: Oh, Jesus.
Posts: 201
It is the duy of the dispatcher to get a read on what crime is being committed which resulted in 911 getting called. It is the duty of the dispatcher to say, "...but simply carrying a gun isn't illegal." to the caller. They don't do that. They send a battalion of cops to the scene.

Not answering the cops questions isn't grounds for getting arrested, especially if you were legally OC'ing. One can use this to further their agenda concerning getting cops to stop hassling OC'ers

Who is going to get the cops to ignore OC, as they should, instead of abusing OC'ers by shouting orders and humiliating Terry stops? The OC'er who meekly complies with the orders and hopes to get let off with a warning? Or the guy who, through noncompliance, get the cops to go 'all in' and make what turns out to be a false arrest?
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:49 PM   #34
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,195
Whats the point of not answering officer questions? Unless you're worried about a 5th A. issue identify yourself and simply state "we are utilizing our First Amendment rights to assemble and march, and using our Second Amendment rights as noted under [law permitting open carry] which is the subject of that march." It shouldn't be issue. No reason for the assemblers to be persnickity and no reason for the police to be persnickety.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:51 PM   #35
Flopsweat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2011
Posts: 182
In my state several bad open carry arrests have lead to successful lawsuits against the offending police departments. The Departments issued training bulletins and paid out large sums of money. As a result, open carriers are no longer falsely arrested and citizens are slowly becoming acclimated. Just like the anti-gunners cries of blood in the streets and wild-west shootouts, all of the anti-open carry exaggerations are coming to naught.
Flopsweat is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 04:52 PM   #36
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,195
Quote:
Who is going to get the cops to ignore OC, as they should, instead of abusing OC'ers by shouting orders and humiliating Terry stops? The OC'er who meekly complies with the orders and hopes to get let off with a warning? Or the guy who, through noncompliance, get the cops to go 'all in' and make what turns out to be a false arrest?
Why are you assuming its a false arrest? I don't know about all states, but I know here, failure to identify yourself will get you legally arrested, where they will sort out your identity. If they are lawful orders, they are lawful orders, and you will be arrested if you violate them.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 05:32 PM   #37
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
but I know here, failure to identify yourself will get you legally arrested, where they will sort out your identity. If they are lawful orders, they are lawful orders, and you will be arrested if you violate them.
I think Brown v. Texas would disagree with your analysis as applied to legal OC or any legal activity.

Although I think the point is moot as far as Texas is concerned, as OC is not legal there correct?
sigcurious is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 05:37 PM   #38
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,195
1. You can be detained to establish your identification.
2. Failure to follow lawful orders can lead to an arrest under several methods including the joyously circular "resisting arrest."
3. OC: not that I am aware of for pistols. However not positive on that. I know in country, especially closer to the border its no big deal. ESPECIALLY in country near the border now. Long arms used to be fully legal. As a kid everyone with a truck had a long gun of some sort, and that mostly died out after a rash of thefts. I don't know if thats changed. I do know if you go walking through downtown Houston with a pistol you'll likely be swarmed and/or shot very quickly.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 05:45 PM   #39
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
1. You can be detained to establish your identification.
Terry v Ohio would also disagree with that. Police cannot detain people without RAS or PC.
sigcurious is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 05:46 PM   #40
Flopsweat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2011
Posts: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
Why are you assuming its a false arrest? I don't know about all states, but I know here, failure to identify yourself will get you legally arrested, where they will sort out your identity. If they are lawful orders, they are lawful orders, and you will be arrested if you violate them.

Most of these encounters that you see or hear about where the citizen is refusing to show ID are in states where ID is only required if you are detained. The officer in question either does not have RAS/PC and has not detained the citizen but is trying to intimidate them, or is ignorant of the law and is effecting an illegal detainment or arrest. These were the two most common causes of lawsuits in my area. And the lawsuits were necessary. Complaints to LEAs, prosecutors, mayors and so forth fell on deaf ears. Nothing, and I mean nothing but a lawsuit persuaded them to stop violating peoples' rights, even after they saw neighboring jurisdictions suffer the same consequences.

Not all of the citizens in the videos are necessarily being nice about it - there seem to be a lot of copycat videos out there where they are just trying to provoke the police - but here's the general scenario (This is not me, by the way: It's just an example):

It's legal in my area to OC (open carry) but the local police will try to intimidate anyone who tries. Numerous letters and phone calls have had no effect. It's always he said she said. Someone has to do something. From now on, when we open carry let's bring a camera and a voice recorder. If one of us gets hassled, the other should record.

Soon enough, another encounter, the officer does his same routine, figuring he'll scare another person into submission. What's this? He's not falling for it? Well maybe a little ride downtown will straighten him out.

What's this, a lawsuit? Great, what next. And of course what next is the mayor screaming at the police chief about how he's blown the city budget for the next decade and how would you like to be driving the same patrol cars five years from now?

The people who did this originally were taking a big risk, but with the hope that they could change the illegal behavior of the police. Some of them did for the greater good, some out of pure stubbornness. Most of them behaved respectfully and simply refused to be bullied. Some of them brought real change to their communities and forced the police back in line. When you think about it, most departments do require frequent praise and occasional discipline, the same way that a puppy or a politician would. At any rate, the later videos that you see all over YouTube are mostly folks copying this same concept, but not always as carefully or respectfully, and often at far less risk. Done wrong, all it does is cheese off LE and make you look like an [donkey].
Flopsweat is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 06:01 PM   #41
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
I don't know about all states, but I know here, failure to identify yourself will get you legally arrested, where they will sort out your identity. If they are lawful orders, they are lawful orders, and you will be arrested if you violate them.
Really? I didn't realize that Texas had gotten so persnickity. I don't know of any jurisdiction where you're required to identify yourself until you're detained or arrested. The peace officers there should be very careful in asking people for ID if they don't have probable cause that would support and arrest.

I'm a cop in Louisiana, and Louisiana is an open carry state. We've been an open carry state for years. It's really not a problem in most jurisdictions, and where it is a problem, lawsuits generally educate the police. Nothing talks like money,and in this tight economy when you hit an agency for several hundred thousand dollars it hurts.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 06:24 PM   #42
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2012
Location: Oh, Jesus.
Posts: 201
Does a pistol on my hip give LEO sufficient suspicion to ask for my permit to carry, or submit to a pat-down after I tell them who I am?

Last edited by Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret; February 12, 2013 at 06:30 PM.
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 06:46 PM   #43
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
Does a pistol on my hip give LEO sufficient suspicion to ask for my permit to carry, or submit to a pat-down after I tell them who I am?
Depends on your state. If you are not in an open carry state, then you are breaking the law and they can arrest you and ask you for ID, carry permit, just about anything. If you are in an open carry state, then no. You may have to tell them who you are, show them ID, or nothing depending on your state laws.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old February 12, 2013, 10:26 PM   #44
Niantician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2005
Location: Ct.
Posts: 467
Two pictures. One is of a gun rights rally in Hartford Ct where many were openly carrying. The other is an occupy Wallstreet rally in Ca. Which one do you think feel more safe attending?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg uploadfromtaptalk1360725612763.jpg (23.7 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg uploadfromtaptalk1360725629984.jpg (56.2 KB, 36 views)
Niantician is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 01:29 AM   #45
Caboclo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2009
Posts: 193
The longer we put off making a stand, the more difficult that stand will be. On the other hand, in any large group, there will inevitably be those with whom we do not wish to be identified. It can be a tricky compromise, but if there were a legal protest organized by a reputable group in my area, I believe I would attend.
Caboclo is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 11:19 AM   #46
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2012
Location: Oh, Jesus.
Posts: 201
Never mind. The bill states one must produce the license upon request.
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 11:45 AM   #47
KevinAustin
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2013
Posts: 1
I just wrote a blog post about my views on open carry.

It can be read here: http://www.personalccw.com/blog/

Feel free to comment. Great thing about America is we can disagree.
KevinAustin is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 11:46 AM   #48
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
Absolutely correct Zincwarrior.


Quote:
Really? I didn't realize that Texas had gotten so persnickity. I don't know of any jurisdiction where you're required to identify yourself until you're detained or arrested. The peace officers there should be very careful in asking people for ID if they don't have probable cause that would support and arrest.
But PAWPAW hits the real nail on the head. He is a cop himself and you will see this small little "if" in his statement.
Quote:
if they don't have probable cause that would support and arrest.
You might be OCing and not know that something has happened close by. You might not be aware the cops have a valid reason for looking for an armed bad guy. How are you going to know at that moment if they are just hassling you or are actually after a whole different thing and you are just getting caught in the net.

I have always cooperated fully and spoken respectfully with the cops and it hasn't gotten me out of many tickets, but I have never been arrested or even detained.

Anything a cop could have done wrong to one of these guys trying to "force the issue", he could have done wrong with a cooperating individual. You don't have to stand for being intimidated but you also don't have to go out and provoke an encounter.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223

Last edited by lcpiper; February 14, 2013 at 12:12 PM.
lcpiper is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 01:35 PM   #49
dajowi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2005
Posts: 976
On youtube there seems to be hundreds of videos of people open carrying their firearms. The recordings of their interactions with various law enforcement agencies are unimaginable.

Law enforcement personnel appear to know less about federal and state law than those they're questioning. It's obvious to me that some of the officials depicted don't like civilians carrying guns.

Don't see any OC here although it's legal. Most of the people I know have concealed carry.

The police can order you to stop if they reasonably suspect that you have committed or are about to commit a crime.

The police can also stop you if they have reasonable grounds to believe that you have committed a violation. Police may detain you until they establish your identity.

There is no obligation in our state to carry photo ID or give identity information to law enforcement when stopped and requested. Of course that doesn't mean that they won't detain you until ID is established.
dajowi is offline  
Old February 14, 2013, 01:56 PM   #50
lcpiper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
I don't trust any of those videos when it's clear they have been edited and narrated. From the moment I see the video isn't raw footage straight from the cam it is suspect to me.

A cop who looks confused might be confused for several reasons. Maybe he is confused about the law, or his superior's instructions and how he should carry them out if the situation has turned out to be something other then initially expected. Or perhaps he is confused by what he should do if his personal beliefs really conflict with his duty.

There could be many reasons the cop could look or behave confused when someone goes out looking to ambush him with a camera.

Oh yes, then you have anger, is he angry that someone is open-carrying or angry he has to put up with some dude trying to make a political or whatever point. Again there could be many reasons a cop would look angry in a situation like some of these and it's all too easy to paint a sign saying why you think he is angry when that reason fits your purpose.

Don't take the yous and yours personally, they are not aimed at you guys.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223
lcpiper is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.20244 seconds with 8 queries