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Old February 13, 2013, 07:13 PM   #101
arch308
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From what little facts I've heard I can't condem the LAPD. Dorner had already killed and planned to kill again. He was firing on police. I'm all for do whatever it takes to kill the SOB with no further casuallties to the good guys. If that means intentionally burning him alive, do it! Heck guys, he was threatening wives & children!
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
From what little facts I've heard I can't condem the LAPD. Dorner had already killed and planned to kill again. He was firing on police. I'm all for do whatever it takes to kill the SOB with no further casuallties to the good guys. If that means intentionally burning him alive, do it! Heck guys, he was threatening wives & children!
will you condemn the police if it wasnt Dorner in the house, kind of like it wasnt Dorner in the trucks they shot up? The police still have protection services provided to the people he threatened so apparently there is still some doubt.
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:43 PM   #103
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While I have not had time to go forth onto the web and read the reports about this incident, from what I've seen here, there still appears to be alot that remains unknown. Were there hostages? Was Dorner firing at officers? Has it been confirmed that Dorner was even in the building? Even if he was, I'm unaware of any tactical response protocol that includes burning down a building around a suspect.

While I understand the officers' urge to "get" Dorner, it's undisputed that he had not faced a trial of a jury of his peers. I have very, very grave reservations about police carrying out summary executions.

I will also caution everyone posting in this thread to avoid getting caught up in some of the bloodlust surrouding this event in their postings.
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:51 PM   #104
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Quote:
will you condemn the police if it wasnt Dorner in the house
No, because even if it wasn't him it's still confirmed that there was A threat inside the cabin, hence the police being fired upon.
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Old February 13, 2013, 07:56 PM   #105
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On an emotional level, yes, it's hard to condemn them.

On the level of professionalism, not so much. The officers directly involved in Mr. Dorner's death were not LAPD, and it's chilling to hear them shouting "Burn the mother---", etc. It's even more chilling that they then did exactly that, rather than waiting him out, as Willie Sutton notes above. I don't know if it amounts to a crime, given that deadly force was clearly already being used, but deliberately trying to burn someone alive is... just nasty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
While I understand the officers' urge to "get" Dorner, it's undisputed that he had not faced a trial of a jury of his peers. I have very, very grave reservations about police carrying out summary executions.
Exactly. Well said, Spats.
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Old February 13, 2013, 08:10 PM   #106
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34.186196, -116.912988 is the approximate location of the cabin where Dorner was allegedly cornered and killed.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=34.18...16.914079&z=19

The address of the cabin complex, while not very helpful, is 40700 7 Oaks Road, Angelus Oaks, CA 92305

Glass Rd at Highway 38 was apparently blocked off by LE.


For reference, the earlier location where he tied up two people in their "cabin", and whose truck he stole when fleeing, was in a more populated area of big bear, reported as the 1200 block of Club View Drive. It looks like it's opposite the golf green.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=1250+...,0.007526&z=18
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:00 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
While I have not had time to go forth onto the web and read the reports about this incident, from what I've seen here, there still appears to be alot that remains unknown. Were there hostages? Was Dorner firing at officers? Has it been confirmed that Dorner was even in the building? Even if he was, I'm unaware of any tactical response protocol that includes burning down a building around a suspect.
They just updated the playbook from the Philadelphia PD.

Remember MOVE? 1985? http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...-bombing_x.htm
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:03 PM   #108
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Nope. Didn't remember THAT one. or maybe that should be
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:10 PM   #109
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Nor did I. Thanks (sort of) for the reminder.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:13 PM   #110
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Random points....

To answer a few posts here, which drifted into how to buy a sound surpresser & take it the same day, ,
This tragic incident reminded me of Marcus Wynn's 2002 novel; No Other Option. That plot is a lot like a Dormer.
A highly trained covert ops/SF soldier goes "off the rez" & tears across the midwest US. The rapist/murder is tracked by his close friend & fellow spec ops commando. Wynn is a highly trained security expert & former US special operations/FAA Sky Marshal.
I read another good novel in the mid 2000s with a storyline about 2 1st grade NYPD detectives who are forced to track down a retired NY State Police Captain. The retired cop is 62 but looks 32, has training & weapons and goes on a rampage when his son is murdered.

To my understanding, .50BMG is not allowed in CA by citizens. Barret Intl refused to sell or market .50 rifles & weapons to any CA law enforcement or public safety.

As for Willie's post, Dormer has a valid point but he's hardly worth any praise or admiration. He's a ruthless killer who preyed on unarmed citizens(some helpless women). He's scum and will burn for it.

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Old February 13, 2013, 09:47 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
I'm unaware of any tactical response protocol that includes burning down a building around a suspect.
It's what they did to get John Wilkes Booth, BTW yesterday was Lincoln's birthday
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:49 PM   #112
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Just because it's been done doesn't make it a protocol.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:51 PM   #113
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Yeah I know, my post was tongue and cheek, if you got to go back 150 years then its prolly not "standard"


Edit
But launching CS into a wooden structure...... Good chance of starting a fire. Now that's if it's confirmed they used tear gas.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:52 PM   #114
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There's probably some truth to that.

Edited to add: Also, just because I am unaware of a particular response protocol doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That is not exactly my area of expertise.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:54 PM   #115
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Quote:
To my understanding, .50BMG is not allowed in CA by citizens. Barret Intl refused to sell or market .50 rifles & weapons to any CA law enforcement or public safety.
Numerous agencies in CA has these BEFORE Barrett stopped selling to or servicing from those agencies, however.
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Old February 13, 2013, 09:57 PM   #116
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What I want to know in regards to the .50, if he even had one, was how he got?

Regardless of Barrett not selling to CA agencies or not, if .50 cal rifles or illegal in California, how could he have one in a non-LEO capacity?

Ignoring the cocerns of why Law Enforcement would need a .50, how would Dorner be able to have pocession of one while no longer in active service as a LEO?
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:00 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeFrog
As for Willie's post, Dormer [sic] has a valid point but he's hardly worth any praise or admiration.
No one who has posted in this thread is admiring or praising him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Quote:
To my understanding, .50BMG is not allowed in CA by citizens. Barret Intl refused to sell or market .50 rifles & weapons to any CA law enforcement or public safety.
Numerous agencies in CA has these BEFORE Barrett stopped selling to or servicing from those agencies, however.
A sort-of-related point: Mr. Dorner is sort of a reverse poster boy for the notion, embedded in some of the current gun control proposals, that LEOs and former LEOs should be exempt from restrictions on "assault weapons" and high-capacity magazines.

This ought to be a bit of an embarrassment to those making such proposals: it certainly undercuts their claim that only "trained professionals" should be trusted with such things. Folks in law enforcement won't be happy if the proponents of such legislation start arguing that they, too, should be prohibited from owning them.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:13 PM   #118
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Quote:
I'm unaware of any tactical response protocol that includes burning down a building around a suspect.
I don't know of any protocol of the sorts either...

...and not saying Spats is making the accusation that that was the intention of LE at the scene.


Coincidentally, I was thinking about Waco when Aguila Blanca posted his Philly article. Which also makes mention of Waco.

As was said earlier, gas grenades/canisters can cause fire. At this point, there is really no clear evidence pointing towards anything else being used to start the fire and it would be unfair to accuse LE of purposely setting the fire.
Purposely trying to gas him out yes. Purposely trying to burn him out ?... ...gotta come with better evidence then what's been shown here.

Last edited by shortwave; February 13, 2013 at 10:20 PM.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:24 PM   #119
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I'm not one to wear a tinfoil hat, and am glad that Dorner won't be able to spout his hate to a willing social media, but as a student, heck, as a cocerned American, the parallels between the resolution of this crisis and Waco are striking. And scary.

Similar number of LE casualties, heavily armed suspect, motivated suspect, media circus, etc.

Deserved or not, I fear that those traits will be discussed ad nauseam for the next several weeks/months.
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Old February 13, 2013, 10:33 PM   #120
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I listened to recordings of LE transmissions from officer to officer and dispatch just prior to the fire. They clearly say Lets go ahead with the burning. Just like we talked about. Then the burners are deployed. Then they continually report the progress of the fire to dispatch and officers with such terms as side 1 fully envolved etc referring to sides of the building.
There is no doubt they intentionally set the fire.
Now is this protocol? No. Nor is firing willy nilly on similar colored pick up trucks not once but twice for no good reason other than fear and wounding at least one woman, from behind.

I wont condemn LE for what they did. Dorner was not going to surrender, and frankly though outmanned and outgunned was effectively killing any officer that gave him the slightest chance. Face with someone that was obviously going to run the kill ratio up highly in his favor before that stand off ended, burning was the safer option and they took it. Its not like Dorner, after killing two cops was going to be allowed to come out of that stand off alive if he had crawled out waving a white flag.

Wasnt right but either the cops were going die in greater numbers, or do what they did. Not rocket science to figure out which they would choose.
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Old February 14, 2013, 04:59 AM   #121
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From reading the various accounts on the news, and watching a few of the videos which mention "burners" one would have to wonder, if the term "burner" is an improper slang term to describe a pyrotechnic type of CS/CN grenade, which as a by product of "burning" to produce the CS/CN gas, it produces a ton of heat as well, vs other versions of CS/CN grenades, such as the aerosol types. Perhaps its an inappropriate use of slang?

Since the cabin was caught on fire, there have been news accounts reporting various things so far, but, as in many complex cases it will take time for the evidence to come out.
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Old February 14, 2013, 05:42 AM   #122
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As I noted in a related thread, I think the people who approve of this action have forgotten Waco. Similarly, I had forgotten MOVE, so thanks to the poster who reminded us of that.

The thing is, while I have no problem with the police using lethal force against Dorner, the force they employed was just not smart.

What if there had been an unknown hostage in the cabin? What if the fire had grown out of control?

They could easily have set a perimeter, and waited Dorner out. If he had come out shooting, and they had killed him, I would have no complaint whatsoever.

But if we give even tacit approval to this incident, then we only encourage the next Waco or MOVE scenario.
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Old February 14, 2013, 06:14 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
But if we give even tacit approval to this incident, then we only encourage the next Waco or MOVE scenario.
I agree. I mentioned MOVE in Philadelphia, but the parallels to Waco are also too strong to be ignored. This appears to have been nothing more than cops turning into vigilantes. My understanding is that the cabin he was in was a one-story structure. They lobbed SEVEN of whatever "burners" are into that cabin. You'll never convince me their intent was just to release tear gas.
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Old February 14, 2013, 06:23 AM   #124
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Two white women in a blue Toyota Tacoma shot, while pursuing a very heavyset black male in a blue Nissan.

Really?

So every time the cops feel threatened, they'll just start riddling innocent civilians with bullets?

In a free republic there's no excuse for such actions. The officers in question should be tried and convicted for attempted murder.

...not even mentioning they torched the cabin with no regard for whomever may have been inside. They're not roving hit squads, they're cops. If they have a problem with putting their lives on the line to protect the innocent, they're in the wrong line of work.
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Old February 14, 2013, 06:53 AM   #125
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In the Move situation, a bomb was actually dropped on the headquarters of that radical organization. Move had wanted a confrontation with the police. They just didn't expect that much of a response.

Waco was a debacle handled by ATF, Bill Clinton & Janice Reno, not local law enforcement.

If memory serves me correctly the victims at Waco & the members of Move, were not out hunting down and murdering police officers and their families. That's a big difference between those groups and Dorner

Tear gas canisters burn hot and if they land near something flammable, a fire can ignite. A fire was started by teargas canisters during the confrontation between the LAPD and the Symbionese Liberation Army (the group that kidnapped Patty Hearst back in the 70s).

Or, perhaps Mr. Dorner lit the fire himself before putting the final bullet in his head. None of us know what really happened. The attempts at making Dorner into some sort of folk hero are, frankly, sickening.

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