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Old February 4, 2013, 12:50 AM   #1
brianidaho
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10mm or ?? for wolves and lions?

I live in rural North Idaho. A few years ago some really bright guys in the federal government elected to plant Canadian Timber Wolves in North Idaho. Well, they recently made it to our neighborhood. We had a deer killed 75 yards from our house and our neighbor had 2 killed within 30 yards of his. So, it's time to step up from my 9mm Shield daily carry gun for our time outside around the house.

I also backcountry motorcycle and ATV in the mountains around here, and regularly camp in the backcountry. I usually carry my .45 Springfield. It's a little "light" for bears and I'd also not complain about a bit more magazine capacity. And honestly, it's a bit nice to bang around with in the backcountry on a bike.

So...I'm considering another handgun for a "woods gun". I want something light enough to carry (open) regularly. I had a Redhawk...that's out. I'd also like significant magazine capacity, given that wolves, should they be a problem, are pack animals. Which leans me towards a semi-auto. And of course I want enough caliber to get the job done, on either wolves, lion...or possibly bear. I do spend some time in Grizzly country, but far more in blackie land, especially camping. I suppose I should be concerned about moose too, was charged by one once.

The first thoughts that come to mine are the 10mm in either the Glock or the EAA Witness. Anyone own these or have thoughts about one vs the other? I own a Witness .40 steel, I'm kind of leaning towards the Witness Polymer for carry Also, how about the .357 Sig? I don't know a lot about it, but when it was introduced I seem to recall the hype saying that it was similar to a .357 mag in performance.

As far as comfort and shootability, I really like the M&P line. The Shield fits me really well and I shoot well (by my standards) with it. I'd really like to see the full size M&P in a 10.

Any thoughts or input are appreciated.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:17 AM   #2
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Well if you want moar capacity I suppose those big bore revolvers are out. I think you're looking in the right direction with the 10mm. When i was doing some hiking in areas with black bears my first instinct was to take one of my .45's. I was then told by some local seasoned hunters the .45 was an aweful choice due to the slow bullet/ lack of penetration with that round. i was pointed in the direction of the 10mm. I know we are talking wolves though not bears, but still... Personally I would go with the Glock. I am no Glock fanboy i only have one of those. I just trust my Glock more than any of my other handguns some of which cost 2-3 times more. With that being said if there were wolves running around killing things in MY yard I would be sure to have a shotty and/or rifle around the house!
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:18 AM   #3
silvrjeepr
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IMO pistol rounds for bear country would be 44 mag minimum. A rifle and bear spray would be strongly preferred though.

Any wolf over 150lbs would also be 44 mag territory.

The 10mm should reliably handle everything up those animals stated above.

This is not law or even proven theory. It's just my personal preference. I tend to lean towards butt preservation these days.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:27 AM   #4
jason_iowa
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10mil should be fine. I would also go with 44mag.
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Old February 4, 2013, 02:32 AM   #5
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If I could I'd ditch the Idea of a pistol. Shotguns are wonderful close in stop the predator weapons. A .44 magnum lever action (I think Henry's Big Boy holds 11 rounds) would be second.
If you have to go with a Hi Cap pistol 10mm may be your only choice.
One of the Tokarevs in 7.62x25 would be a weapon you could beat on without worries for cheap with a cartridge known for it's penetration but I'd worry about the fact that the round only makes small holes.
I've spent more time than I care to think about driving on Idaho back roads. I had 200+ mile commute at one point. I've stopped and looked at up close a roadkill wolf, I was in Idaho at the time.
I was in awe at how big it was. Realize what size a lean, muscular,dog would have to be to weigh 150lbs. Trying to stop that coming at me with a pistol would not be my idea of entertainment. Keep in mind my idea of cougar protection is my Single Six with .22 magnums in it.

All that being said, have the wolves attacked any humans up there yet? If you're just trying to protect yourself none of this may be needed.

If you're worried about your livestock, I can certainly see the need. I've still got a lot of friends up Idaho way, and they seem to feel the wolves have realized domestic animals make easy meals.
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Old February 4, 2013, 02:44 AM   #6
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If I remember right, Jay C. Bruce CA State cougar killer (Bounty Hunter) used a 38-40 which equates to a 40S&W. Not my first choice though.
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Old February 4, 2013, 02:47 AM   #7
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Here is a news report on a Wolf attack in Alaska. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35913715/n.../#.UQ9lm6VEFu4
It's not just MSM,but NBC even worse, so take it with a hefty grain of salt, but it seems to echo what I found out when I got curious after seeing the wolf carcass on the road.
Maybe wolves just think we taste bad.
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Old February 4, 2013, 02:54 AM   #8
bigghoss
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A good proper 10mm load should do well against a wolf or cougar. A heavy hard-cast bullet should work on a black bear. For grizzly, might as well just eat a bullet yourself.
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Old February 4, 2013, 05:37 AM   #9
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10mm. A Glock, 10mm, is arguably *one* of the most powerful handgun you can own, due to the fact you get 15 rounds of 10mm, follow up shots as easier then heavier loads, and you get more rounds (15) A fully loaded 10mm Glock (or EAA) overpowers any 5 or 6 shot revolver. If you shot a target 6 times with .44 mag from a revolver VS shooting it 15 times with the 10mm, the 10mm would obviously do massively more damage due to the extra shots. There is even some military that carries the 10mm Glock as a sidearm.... In polar bear territory!

5 to 6 shots of .44 magnum doesn't equal as much firepower as 15 shots of 10mm.
So a 10mm would be the best choice, without a doubt. If you come across multiple wolves, you sure don't want only 5-6 rounds! And a 10mm is fully capable of taking out wolves, plus you'll have 3 times the rounds as a 5 shot revolver.

Last edited by Josh17; February 4, 2013 at 01:14 PM.
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Old February 4, 2013, 06:11 AM   #10
shafter
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I would say your 9mm is probably adequate to take care of any wolves or lions you may encounter. If it was me I'd be carrying a 357 magnum Smith and Wesson or Ruger.

I can't speak for wolves and lions but they can't be any harder to drop than a black bear and I dropped one of those with a 22 handgun. . .that being said I've seen 357's glance off a bears face.
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Old February 4, 2013, 08:58 AM   #11
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Quote:
10mm. A Glock, 10mm, is arguably the most powerful handgun you can own. 5 or 6 shots of .44 mag is definitely not as good as 15 rounds of 10mm.
I have a Desert Eagle .44 magnum with 10 round magazine. I think that'll beat a 10mm glock. And, it can be used as a boat anchor.

Seriously, I'd vote for a 10mm Glock for an outdoor handgun in the conditions described.
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Old February 4, 2013, 09:18 AM   #12
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"10mm, is arguably the most powerful handgun you can own"

No, but it is a good choice for the O/P. It is about the same as a .357 in a 4" revolver. On the handgun food chain it is no where near the top.
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Old February 4, 2013, 09:24 AM   #13
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I have G-20 in 10mm and a 3" S&W 629 in 44 mag. The G-20 is 1" shorter, weighs 3/4 lb less and holds 2 1/2 X more ammo.

While 44mag performance looks impressive in ballistics charts, those numbers come from 8" test barrels. Start shooting those same loads from 3"-4" barrels and they don't look nearly so impressive.

Real numbers, with these guns shot over my chronograph show the 10mm shooting 200 gr hardcast loads from Double Tap @ 1315 fps. The 3" 629 shoots 240 gr bullets @1150 fps. Real world performance from the 10mm is closer to magnum revolver performance than most guys realise. From a 6" or longer barrel I could get 1400-1500 fps from the 44, but I'll carry a carbine before I'll carry a handgun that large.
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Old February 4, 2013, 09:46 AM   #14
Dashunde
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The fully loaded Glock 20 is about the same size and weight as a loaded 1911, but its thicker.
Overall the 20 would be hard to beat for your purposes.
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Old February 4, 2013, 09:49 AM   #15
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Since the 10mm is less gun than a 4" .357, why even go to the .44 Mag comparison. Here is 4" .44 mag

44 MAG. - 225 gr. Barnes XPB
1399 fps -- S&W MT Gun, 4 inch barrel

.41 Magnum Ammo - 230 gr. Keith
4" S&W Mountain Gun - 1370 fps
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Old February 4, 2013, 10:59 AM   #16
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I choose 10mm for all the right reasons! I handload so I know what I get in terms of ballistic performance...those that don't handload there is Underwood Ammo which is great in the 10mm high performance...
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Old February 4, 2013, 11:03 AM   #17
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P.S. It would be nice if Springfield made an XD 10mm or if S&W made the M&P 10mm or if any other companies produce newer non-1911 type 10mm.
There are plenty 1911 10mm's out there, just not enough mag capacity for the weight. This is where Glock shines...polymer frame and extra rounds capacity!
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Old February 4, 2013, 11:23 AM   #18
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" It would be nice if Springfield made an XD 10mm"

They make a .45 ACP which is perfect for .460 Rowland conversion.
If you really want lower level revolver magnum power, do the .460 Rowland conversion, and you are getting around 1,000 ft lbs with a big bullet. Then you are getting there. For the O/P the 10mm sounds fine as he does not need serious power, 750 ft lbs would work fine.
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Old February 4, 2013, 11:28 AM   #19
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The Glock 20 is on my valentines list. If only people didn't buy up all the reloading components...
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Old February 4, 2013, 11:46 AM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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Never being in this situation, this will not stop me from contributing.

I recall that the Danes and Norwegians issued Glock 20s with the extended barrel and some heavy 10 mm load as a backup for bear situations. Of course, they carried long arms.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:02 PM   #21
jakemonroe
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i would 100% go with a glock 20. when your worried about bears you can assume that 6 shots is sufficient but when you might be dealing with a a pack of wolves the 15 rounds in a glock 20 would seem really comforting. i know a guy in Alaska who had an encounter on a moose kill, had to kill four wolves before he hit the alpha and the rest split.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:11 PM   #22
Josh17
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Yes, that is the military I meant who carries them.

As for being ONE of the best (not the best) "best handguns you can own fire-power wise" I stole that quote from the infamous hickok45 on YouTube. I'm not certain its truly accurate. But you have to admit 15 rounds of 10mm is powerful for a handgun. He said this because 15 rounds of 10mm is more firepower than 5 to 6 rounds that a revolver holds. Remeber I'm comparing SEMI 15 rounds of 10mm vs 5 or 6 rounds from a revolver. Having 3 times the amount of rounds in a 10mm semi vs a revolver is what is "the kicker".

Last edited by Josh17; February 4, 2013 at 01:22 PM.
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Old February 4, 2013, 03:24 PM   #23
jmortimer
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As usual, the 10mm devotees over-rate their guns. To begin with, one 11.5 mm eight foot wound channel is better than two or three 10mm four foot wound channels. Further, here is some math:

15 rounds 10mm at 750 ft lbs = 11,250 ft lbs

6 rounds .460 at 2,700 plus = 16,200 ft lbs or more

Again, since the O/P does not need serious power, a 10mm seems like the best choice. The 10mm is good but let's keep it real. The 10mm and the .357 are similar, so the real question is if a .357 is enough, then the 10mm should suffice as it is close to .357 power.
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Old February 4, 2013, 07:29 PM   #24
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My vote is for the .460 Rowland in a 1911. I don't have one, but it sure sounds interesting and should do the job.
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Old February 4, 2013, 07:35 PM   #25
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Josh17, the thing is that when dealing with large predatory animals, the odds of being able to get off more than a few shots are slim; sometimes, there is no guarantee of even getting off one shot.

So, while capacity MAY be a good thing, adequate power and penetration to achieve a faster stop is arguably much better.

Watch a video sometime of a bear's charge, or watch COPS or something similar when a police K9 takes somebody down, and then consider how many of those 15 rounds of 10mm could realistically be fired.
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