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Old February 2, 2013, 10:16 PM   #1
indy1919
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Euro Arms enfield 1853 replica

Looking at a Euro Arms Enfield.. The rifle looks unused, Stock perfect

A couple questions comes to mind..

How long has Euro Arms been out of business????

How Hard are parts to get???

This guy who has it is a friend and has always promised me this piece, So what would be a fair price ?????
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Old February 3, 2013, 06:45 AM   #2
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Indy

Euroarms is still in business. They have a website for which the source code is current.

Parts for that firearm should be available.

Don't know the value because I don't follow such things but you are at an advantage in coming to a fair price, because you know the history and probably, the condition of the piece.

Check successful sales of the piece on gunbroker and find out what folks are paying. Double check that against a different market to make sure that people on GB are not paying more than you can get a new one for, out of ignorance.
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Old February 3, 2013, 10:42 AM   #3
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Euroarms sold out to Pedersoli right around this time in 2011.
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Old February 3, 2013, 11:59 AM   #4
maillemaker
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Yup - Pedersoli bought out Euroarms last year.

They also completely re-tooled the Enfield to make it more authentic-looking, so getting spare parts may be difficult - I don't know if Pedersoli is still producing spare parts for the "old" Enfield.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sche...le-musket.html

Steve
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Old February 4, 2013, 12:04 PM   #5
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To determine price you might want to peruse the want ads at the N/SSA website. The skirmishers use, buy && sell a lot of different 58cals.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:13 PM   #6
maillemaker
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Quote:
This guy who has it is a friend and has always promised me this piece, So what would be a fair price ?????
Missed this part.

Current new production Enfield rifles sell in excess of $800.

I've seen them sold as low as $500 or so used.

Personally, if I was going to spend anywhere near $800 on an Enfield, I'd wait until they are back in stock and buy one of the new Pedersoli Enfields.

I own a Euroarms Enfield. It had a huge bore when I got it (used) at .584 inches. At that size, your options for stock molds that will work well are limited. I think I paid $495 for it 2 years ago, and I spent another $500 on a new Whitacre barrel for it, and I've spent at least $250 on various molds trying to get it to shoot well.

Within a year of N-SSA competition shooting, the nose of the sear mushroomed out and broke off because it was too soft.

The Euroarms Enfield, like all of the reproductions until very recently, was based off of the Parker Hale reproduction, which was based off of UK tooling, which was based off a Type IV Enfield. The vast majority of Enfields in the Civil War were Type III. Also, the Euroarms Enfield hammer is too small, as was the Parker Hale it was copied after.

Some Euroarms deficiencies for a Civil War-era Enfield:
  • Wrong sling hardware
  • Wrong Badley-style barrel bands, should be Palmer-style
  • Wrong lockplate markings
  • Wrong lockpate washers
  • Too heavy
  • Polyurethane stock finish
  • Hammer is too small

The Pedersoli Enfield has corrected many of these problems. Armisport is said to be soon likewise reworking their Enfield.

I would not buy a Euroarms Enfield today unless it was one heck of a deal or if it was delivered with a known bullet/powder charge recipe that could demonstrably punch a single hole in the paper off a bench.

Steve
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Old February 4, 2013, 03:30 PM   #7
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Forgive my ignorance, but are the Enfields and their clones rifled????
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Old February 4, 2013, 03:36 PM   #8
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Yes indeedly they are rifled but not with the progressive rifling sported by the originals unless Pedersoli is doing it.
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Old February 4, 2013, 03:50 PM   #9
10851Man
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@ Hawg,

I understand the term 'progressive' at face value, but could you explain it to me in this context????
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Old February 4, 2013, 04:08 PM   #10
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I have a T. of W. '53 Enfield. I had it drilled through and tig welded. The first attempt to drill it , by a former S&W machinist, using the angled drill method, broke out the bottom. The second attempt was at right angles to the bore, and made a fire channel, barely. I think a drill larger than the supplied one would have been appropriate. I've always had a heck of a time getting it to light. The bbl stood a 85gr. Pyrodex proof load, so the steels alright on that one. It will always pop musket caps, but the main charge doesn't always go.
No way I would recommend one, but it's good enough for a wall hanger. Art for art's sake.

Last edited by Strafer Gott; February 4, 2013 at 05:05 PM.
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Old February 4, 2013, 04:09 PM   #11
Hawg Haggen
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Progressive means its deeper at the breech and shallow at the muzzle but still has the same twist rate. Then there's gain twist rifling that gets faster at the muzzle
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Old February 4, 2013, 04:24 PM   #12
maillemaker
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Quote:
Forgive my ignorance, but are the Enfields and their clones rifled????
As Hawg pointed out, yes, the Enfields and the modern clones were rifled.

I don't think Euroarms or Armisport had/have progressive rifling. From what I'm gathering from Google, the Parker Hales did have progressive (gain twist) rifling.

There are two kinds of "progressive" rifling: progressive twist (gain twist) and progressive depth.

As I understand it, progressive twist, or gain twist, means that the rifling starts off slow and spins up as you go along the barrel. The idea is that the bullet will not strip against the rifling when it first starts its forward linear movement.

Progressive depth means that the grooves start off deep near the breach but get shallower and shallower towards the muzzle.

Whitacre makes replacement, competition barrels for Enfields, and his website says they have progressive depth rifling.

Many reproductions and replacement barrels have different twist rates than the original Enfields, which were 1:78. My Whitacre is 1:72. Euroarms says 1:78, but I have been told they are 1:72. Not sure what Armisport is.

Steve

Edit: Oops, got in too late!
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Old February 4, 2013, 05:10 PM   #13
Strafer Gott
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Are the Zouaves comparable to an Enfield? I see them around quite a bit. I always wondered how well they do, and whether they prefer the Yank or the Enfields minie ball.

Last edited by Strafer Gott; February 4, 2013 at 06:33 PM.
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Old February 4, 2013, 06:01 PM   #14
10851Man
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Thanks for the information....
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Old February 4, 2013, 06:19 PM   #15
Hawg Haggen
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Yeah they're comparable, just the Zouave is shorter. I prefer the U.S. three ring minie so I can lube it in the grooves. Lubing the base works, I just prefer the grooves.
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Old February 4, 2013, 11:45 PM   #16
maillemaker
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Lubing the grooves is the period-correct way of lubing, too. I have heard N-SSA folks say they have recovered base-lubed balls and found lube still in them, and there was some concern that the lube might alter the balance of the ball and thus harm accuracy. Who knows?

I have not found any of the traditional minnie ball styles to shoot well in my 1:72 twist Enfield. The RCBS Hodgdon "skirmisher" bullet does much better. Not an authentic bullet style, but it has a large rear grease groove that holds much more lube than a traditional minnie. You can tell a difference in shooting them in how much longer it stays easier to load, and of course accuracy is better.

Steve
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Old February 5, 2013, 03:05 PM   #17
10851Man
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What's more accurate in a .58????

Ball or Conical????
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Old February 5, 2013, 03:52 PM   #18
maillemaker
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Quote:
What's more accurate in a .58????
When I say, "ball" for Enfields, I'm talking about ".58 caliber expanding ball" ammunition. This is what the "Minnie balls" were called during the civil war. They are conical bullets with a hollow base that expands when the charge goes off, causing the bullet to take up the rifling.

Also used were British Enfield cartridges that had smooth-sided expanding balls that were designed to be shot with the paper of the cartridge still around the bullet, making essentially a paper-patched bullet. It was still an expanding ball kind of ammunition though. It just had no lube grooves because the paper cartridge itself had the bullet end dipped in lube so the paper took up the lube.

I'm sure you could shoot a patched round ball in an Enfield, but I have no idea what to expect from it.

Here is a nice article on period ammo:

http://www.cartridgetubes.com/Authentic_Cartridges.html

Steve
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Old February 5, 2013, 06:10 PM   #19
10851Man
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Forgive my ignorance, but with a Minie there is no patch needed????
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Old February 5, 2013, 06:18 PM   #20
10851Man
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So, if I have more than (10) paper cartridges in my cap box for my Enfield, am I violating the '10 round rule?'
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Old February 5, 2013, 07:12 PM   #21
10851Man
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This doesn't look right:



Looks like the 'minie' is on the wrong end of the charge. I would therefore assume, based on this picture, that one would tear or bite off the twisted end, pour in the powder, then reverse the paper tune and seat the bullet.

Would it not be better to arrange the cartridge where you just tear the end and ram it into place????

Am I missing something?????
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Old February 5, 2013, 07:35 PM   #22
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Whichever way you prefer. That's the original way of doing it. I presume to keep the lube from contaminating the powder. The only way to lube an Enfield bullet is in the base.
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Old February 5, 2013, 07:49 PM   #23
10851Man
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Got it. Makes sense!!!
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Old February 5, 2013, 08:18 PM   #24
maillemaker
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Quote:
Forgive my ignorance, but with a Minie there is no patch needed????
Well, like I tried to explain, in the United States, "cartridges" were made up of paper, with the expanding ball and powder inside. You tore the tail off of the cartridge and dumped the powder down the barrel. Then you would crack/tear the cartridge in half, and extract the bullet from the paper. The bullet was pre-lubricated by being dipped in a mixture of tallow and beeswax. This lubricated bullet was pushed "naked" down the barrel.

The 1855-style looks like this:



It had a separate "powder case", and it and the bullet were housed in the outer sleeve with the tied off nose and the folded up tail.

In 1862 they changed the design, doing away with the special, pasted inner case and just taking two tied-off outer sleeves and nesting them together. The outer one held the bullet, and the inner one held the powder.

They were used the same, though.

Now the English did it different. Their cartridge contained the bullet and the powder, but the finished cartridge was dipped in lube with the paper. So it was a paper-patched bullet. You still tore the tail off, and dumped in the powder, but then you stuck the bullet-end of the paper cartridge into the end of the barrel and tore off the extra paper. So some paper (with lube) went down the barrel with the bullet. The bullet was sized to work this way. It looks like this:



Here you can see a complete cartridge stuck in the end of a musket. Note that you would have torn the tail off and dumped the powder in before this point. The picture is just to give you an idea of the bullet-end of the cartridge going into the barrel:



All pictures are from here:
http://cartridgetubes.com/Authentic_Cartridges.html

[/quote]Whichever way you prefer. That's the original way of doing it. I presume to keep the lube from contaminating the powder. The only way to lube an Enfield bullet is in the base.[/quote]

It's not the only way.

In a period cartridge, the bullets were dip-lubed. The powder was separated from the bullet by its own separate paper powder case, for precisely the reason you state - to keep the lube from fouling the powder.

In the N-SSA, many folks fill their plastic "cartridge" tube with powder, then stick the bullet in like a stopper, and then dip the bullet into molten lube, using the tube as a "handle". If you let the lube rise above the seam between the end of the tube and the bullet, you actually get an air-tight seal to boot.

I personally use a Lyman lubrisizer that sizes the bullet and applies lube at the same time.

Of course as you note if you get lube on the mouth of the case when you go to dump your powder some powder stays stuck in the lube.

It's definitely less messy to lube in the hollow base of the bullets - then you can pull them out of their cartridges without getting lube on your fingers and risk dropping the slippery things.

Steve
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Old February 5, 2013, 08:20 PM   #25
maillemaker
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Here you can see authentic-style cartridges I made:

http://imgur.com/a/H5PHo#0
http://imgur.com/a/xvibh
http://i.imgur.com/eUSlK.jpg
http://imgur.com/a/n1hJ7#0

Steve
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