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Old December 29, 2000, 01:04 PM   #1
Glamdring
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Which would you pick? And what loads and optics? I am thinking 26" barrels with any of those three. Don't need to worry about Elk or such hunting this would be for Mt. Sheep & Goats, and perhaps sniping at Prong Horns.

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Old December 29, 2000, 01:57 PM   #2
Hard Ball
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I would select the .264. Its performance would be quite adequate and your barrel will last a lot longer.
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Old December 29, 2000, 03:48 PM   #3
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IIRC, my old speer manual shows that the 270 WIN is giving up VERY little to the 264. I'd say get the 270 winchester. Boring, yes. Effective, yes. I'm of the mind that on sub-elk sized critters (pigs not included), if you're worried about shooting flatter than the '06 family, the range at which a noticable difference forms is further than anyone should be shooting, unless you're packing a rangefinder and verified ballistics chart and the wind ain't blowing. Triple jeopardy. Buy a 270 winchester.

JMO, and I've got a granite cranium.

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Old December 29, 2000, 03:56 PM   #4
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...and on that note, I'll take this opportunity to promote the .280 Remington. If you handload, the .280 offers what i consider to be significant advantages over the .270 Winchester. And if you don't handload, it's still every bit the equal of the .270, except that factory ammo is not as common. The .280 gives up very little indeed to the 7mm Remington Magnum.
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Old December 29, 2000, 04:40 PM   #5
Dave Finfrock
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All three are practically the same thing ballistcally. Not much to choose from in that regard.

I've got a fair amount of experience with the .264, though. I can tell you it's a royal pain in the posterior to deal with. Temperamental as hell, and relatively difficult to find the scarce and expensive components to load it. One of it's favorite powders was H870, which is a nightmare to clean--though cheap enough otherwise.

My gun was a Douglas premium barrel on an FN mauser action. It shot well, and ballistics were very good from a 26" barrel. Still, it was a lot of trouble and I wasn't too sorry to see it go.

The .270WCF advice isn't bad. It's a lot less hassle in the long run.
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Old December 29, 2000, 06:59 PM   #6
Zorro
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Get a 7MM Remington Magnum.

Ammo is available everywhere. If a rifle is available in any caliber 7 Mag is probably one of them.

Fairly easy to reload for.

Shoots as flat or flatter than a 270, hits as hard or harder than a 30-06.

Forget anything with the name Weatherby on it unless you are rich and want a pretty gun.

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Old December 30, 2000, 01:08 AM   #7
Glamdring
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To those who have used the 264 what bullets and loads have you used or favored?

Zorro: I would not be getting a Weatherby rifle, I don't think much of Weatherby's rifles though I like some of his cartridges. Common ammo is not a major concern. With gun/cartridges that one intends to shoot at long range common ammo wouldn't be used in the first place. Since you will need to find a handload that performs well or use premium quality ammo in the first place. If your using a 30-30, or such, then I can understand the common ammo arguement, since even if the ammo shoots 4 MOA that is still good enough within the 30-30 effective range [ie ~200yards].
And though I am not rich I only have two hobbies that cost much, reading and shooting, and I still have more money in my books than my guns though I own a Steyr Scout rifle. So I figure I can indulge in four or so rifles [a light rifle (ie the scout), a long range rifle (257/264/270), a medium (338), and a "heavy" (a 416)] that cost a bit more than average. The way I figure it even if I spend 3k on each of those rifles that is still less than what most people would spend on cars in a 10 year period and the rifles will last at least a couple of generations, though the small bores may need to be rebarreled a time or two.

Dave: I am not sure I understand what you mean by "scarce and expensive components"? Winchester and Remington both still offer loaded ammo so once you fired them you would have cases no problem. Not to mention you can form them from 7 Rem mag. Bullets are easy to get I would probably stick with nosler 140 partitions in the 264 except for varments.

The 270 Win, 280, or 7 Rem Mag would be better general purpose calibers, but they are not really in the same class as the 264 or 270 WBY. The 270 WBY can push a 150 grain bullet to the same speed as the 270 Win pushes a 130 grain bullet, in the 3100+ fps range with 26" barrels. While the 264 will push a 140 grain bullet to 3100+ fps [with a better SD and BC than 150 grain .270" bullets]. It is kinda like comparing the 300 Win and 7mm Rem to the 30-06...all three rounds have about the same terminal effect. But they exterior ballistics of the mags are better than the standard round.

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Old December 30, 2000, 05:39 AM   #8
Dave Finfrock
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The .264 is fast, but you HAVE to have a 26" barrel to really see it. The cartridge seems prone to sudden fluctuations in pressure, so you have to be careful in load development.

.264 stuff simply isn't all that common. I had sources of relatively cheap bullets, but you had to really search for out of the way gunshops with existing stocks they were dying to get rid of ('cause no one buys the stuff). Cases are expensive. More than .300Win. They're belted, so that's a hassle and you end up throwing out a quarter of them because the damned belt isn't where it's supposed to be. If you form from .338 or .458, you'll have to ream necks. You HAVE to. No execptions (see temperamentality and pressure fluctuation commments above).

My gun was partial to Nosler bullets. The 120gr solid base and the 125gr Partition worked well. I also had a helluva time keeping it fed with them. I had to special order solid bases all the time. I could usually find Sierras or Hornadys if I looked hard enough, but normally it'd be match bullets or the little 85s and 100s. The less said about Speer the better.

The bottom line is the gun is an oddball. If you like dealing with quirks and scrounging components, then you'll love the .264. It had it's moments, but I learned my lesson. It made a lot of noise, gulped powder, wore out cases in no time, and didn't do anything my .308s and .30-06s couldn't do. No more belted cases and I try and avoid oddball calibers as much as possible now.
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Old December 30, 2000, 01:14 PM   #9
Glamdring
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Ahh...you were trying to find gunshops that carried what you wanted/needed. I gave up on that a long time ago, if you mail order [or internet/phone] from Midway [1-800-243-3220] http://www.midwayusa.com or Huntington [530-534-1212] http://www.huntingtons.com
you can get what you want and not have to settle for whatever the gun shops stock or what they will order.

I guess I am used to ordering ammo,books, and guns to get what I want most of the time. Come to think of it my Scout rifle in 308 is the only one I haven't ordered ammo or components for yet...but I had to wait three months for the morons at the gun shop to order the rifle for me even after I gave them the phone and fax number for GSI [GSI shipped it withing 24 hours of getting the order] I almost went and got an FFL myself that time. But even for my other common calibers, 38 special, 357 mag, 44 special, 44 mag, 12 gauge, & 6.5x55 I have had to order ammo or components to get what I want to shoot.
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Old December 30, 2000, 01:29 PM   #10
Dave Finfrock
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Admittedly, this was about 15 years ago. Most mail order options around now didn't really exist. I also had more tolerance for this sort of thing back then. Looking back now, it just doesn't seem all that long ago, but it was 15 years...

Gah, it's hell to get old.
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Old December 30, 2000, 05:49 PM   #11
Art Eatman
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You mention mountain sheep and goats, plus antelope.

My vast experience of one antelope sez that an '06 is a bit of overkill for them. Not quite 15" horns, he must have field dressed at maybe 90? 100? pounds.

The only mountain goats I've seen were along the Icefield Parkway, south of Jasper, Alberta. They looked big enough to deserve an '06. Same for mountain sheep I've seen. But, the articles about hunting them commonly mention the relatively long ranges to shoot: Sometimes you have no choice but to take a 300-yard shot or even more.

Now, I've been very happy with 30 years of my Wby Mk V in '06. Overall, however, for what you describe, I'd go with a 7mm Rem Maggie for the sheep and goat. I'd go with either a .25-'06 or .270 for antelope in the Wyoming/Montana country.

Again, I don't profess to offer this as any "expert". It's my impressions from years of reading and years of shooting all sorts of rifles...

FWIW, Art
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Old December 31, 2000, 12:14 AM   #12
Shootist45
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My vote--

I used to work for Weatherby, before they moved to Astascadero.

Roy W. was VERY partial to the .257 WBY. It was and is the fastest thing since greased lightning. It's trajectory is string straight and hits like Thor's Hammer for its size.

You can go to a lot of other calibers, but none in my opinion, are as good for what you want as the .257 Weatherby.

You might wait a bit to see what Winchester comes out with though!!

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Old December 31, 2000, 12:54 AM   #13
Glamdring
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I don't think I will ever own a '06 unless I get a 1903 or M1 Garand. It just isn't a caliber I am interested in.

As to non magnum calibers like the 270, 280, etc I already have a 308 and a 6.5x55 that work fine for medium sized big game [ie white tail, mule deer, & such] at normal ranges.

And I will use a 338 or 416 caliber for elk & bigger so a 300 mag would serve little purpose.

Now if I was trying to stick to "common" factroy ammo/calibers I would probably just get a 243 or 25-06 for light stuff with a 300 Win for most serious hunting and a 416 Rem for everything else.

So what is winchester supposed to bring out? They going to do a whole line based on the 300 short?
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Old December 31, 2000, 12:56 AM   #14
Hardin
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I'd prefer 270 Win, available in ALLOY BAR.

Why settle for a bolt action, when can have an auto? Then it can handle charges, dogpacks and men. Not nearly as true of a bolt. BAR has adequate accuracy for large game, and 264 is a bit much for varmints, especially in the Eastern US.
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Old January 1, 2001, 12:19 AM   #15
Glamdring
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Hardin: Er...rather why settle for a semi when you can have a bolt gun? You would be limiting your effective [ethical] range on game to 300 yards or less and I already have two rifles that handle that very well.

Have you ever fired the BAR? It isn't in the same class as a bolt gun that is purpose built, a custom or semi custom rifle, for long range hunting.

Art: The Prairie Goats might get sniped at with this rifle, but if I was hunting Prong Horns I would use the 308 or 6.5x55.
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Old January 1, 2001, 12:39 AM   #16
Art Eatman
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Well, Glam, the 6.5X55 seems about right for antellopies. I see no reason not to have used my .243 on the lil critter. Ain't hindsight wonderful? (Actually, had I used the .243, it would have sorta been a nose-wipe on a guy coming to the ranch to hunt with a 6.5mm built on some gigantic case like a 7mmRemMag. )

Looking at the ballistic table for "way out yonder", I'd take the 7mm Rem Mag for the sheep and goats because of what I've seen and read about the distances. It would have a tad less wind drift than the .257 Wby, and the heavier bullets available would have more remaining energy. More choices of bullet in 7mm. Me bein' me, I always think like a handloader...

It's the old "insurance" thing, though, when you might have to play Ma Bell for your one-chance-only trophy.

, Art
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Old January 1, 2001, 12:48 AM   #17
Art Eatman
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Say, Hardin!

You post like a fella who believes in what he's saying...We have a dog pack problem, down here at Terlingua. About a dozen or so, up to Rottweiler size, that have been working on deer and such. They've been chased off a colt, and pretty much scared one of our schoolteachers near her house.

I popped a couple of them. Used a buddy's left-handed bolt action, but then there were only two of them out and around. The rest of the pack was elsewhere.

But if you wanna hunt over 20,000 or 30,000 acres, you oughta bring your BAR and go after them. Lots of 4WD jeep trails for access into where they range.

, Art
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Old January 1, 2001, 12:56 AM   #18
Glamdring
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Art: You think a 7 Rem mag is a big shell? I am leaning towards the 264 because of bullet selection: The .264" 140 grain Nosler partition has about the same BC as 150 grain ballistic tips do in .270" or 7mm. Though related to what Dave said the 257 WBY or 270 WBY would be easier to get formed brasss for I could get the formed brass in the brand I want with the Weatherby's.

The 257 Weatherby would be fun to practice with less recoil, that is the main reason it is being considered. The 270 WBY would be easier to feed with game bullets than the other two [more selection for handloading].

BTW my main consideration isn't trajectory, but wind drift. I want as short a time of flight as possible, which is controled by BC and velocity, with game bullets.
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Old January 1, 2001, 01:02 AM   #19
Glamdring
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Well if dogs are a problem why not just set up a hide on commanding terrian, selected from a topo, set up claymores for area defense [or coyote traps would work if your low on claymores] and then start sniping them with a good long rang varmint or prairie goat rifle...say a 240 or 257 Weatherby or a 264

Happy New Year all!
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Old January 1, 2001, 01:59 AM   #20
Hardin
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yes I have and with some tuning and the Boss

comp, it will group 1 1/2" at 100 yds, with its preferred load. Since you wont have a sandbagged bench in the field, you wont be able to tell a 1 moa rifle from a 1 1//2 moa rifle, and when you figure in wind, mirage, target movement being somewhat likely (especially pronghorn) and up and downhill angles, variable weather, etc, the reality is that reliable 400+ yd hits are not likely, so the BAR has enough accuracy. The bolt may well be unable to rehit a cripple, letting him fall off a cliff, smashing the horns and ruining a lot of the meat, if you can get to him at all, that is.
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