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Old January 26, 2013, 07:40 PM   #1
tobnpr
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The new "rip-off" scam??

Perusing the web, came across a brandy-new "manufacturer" of AR lowers...

Not going to mention names, but essentially their deal was "pre-order, now"...and we intend to deliver on or before June 1st of this year.

And, by the way, we're going to charge your card, NOW....

Mark my words... later this year, you're going to be hearing about companies like this, taking the money- and running...

And, good luck with your credit card company refunding your money. Six months is waaayyy past any time frame where you can contest charges.

I've seen a couple of them, one brought to my attention by a poster somewhere on this forum, that he and his buds had just ordered a bunch of lowers from a brand new company that just sprang up to take advantage of the "situation".

Don't get me wrong- I really do hope those guys get what they pre-paid for months from now. But, they're located in my state, and I looked in public records, and there's no record of a corp or llc, or DBA under that name...HMMM....

Me, I'll stick with a known, reputable retailer that won't charge me until it ships. Now, rightfully so, these guys are charging order cancellation fees if you cancel.

Do yourselves a favor- stick with the reputable companies that were around BEFORE this debacle...or you'll have no right to moan when you've got no product- and they've long run with your hard-earned dough.
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Old January 26, 2013, 07:45 PM   #2
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So you don't mention names or have any direct experience or knowledge that there is a problem, but you are proclaiming a problem?
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Old January 26, 2013, 08:07 PM   #3
tobnpr
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Quote:
So you don't mention names or have any direct experience or knowledge that there is a problem, but you are proclaiming a problem?
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Mentioning names would be accusatory, and I am not accusing.

Where did I "proclaim a problem"??

This is a General DISCUSSION Forum... I was merely bringing up a topic for discussion.

Apparently, you have issue with this topic?

Do you routinely pay for goods that you know you won't see for six months, from a company that has sprung up out of nowhere?

If so, rotsa ruck to ya.
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Old January 26, 2013, 08:09 PM   #4
BigD_in_FL
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Your insinuation is that this company is not going to deliver, so either state the company or do not bother with drive by posts like this as it solves nothing
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Old January 26, 2013, 08:17 PM   #5
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It does bring up an interesting general question - is there any way to put down a deposit for goods that aren't going to be delivered for several months, while still preserving your right to dispute the charge if the goods never materialize? Or would small-claims court be your only recourse?
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:20 PM   #6
BigD_in_FL
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CT shotgun does it all the time - they give a discount for full prepay and then deliver, sometimes over a year, later
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
CT shotgun does it all the time - they give a discount for full prepay and then deliver, sometimes over a year, later
I understand how it's supposed to work (and usually does). But my question is whether there's a way to prepay that won't leave you holding the bag if the company never comes through with the goods?
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:25 PM   #8
shafter
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This is worthless without knowing which company this is.....
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:30 PM   #9
BigD_in_FL
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But my question is whether there's a way to prepay that won't leave you holding the bag if the company never comes through with the goods?
Not really - now CT collects several thousands per gun in order to save a few thousand, and they have the rep to do that. Personally, I would have a problem if the company does not have a history to it.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:47 PM   #10
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I could have sworn the Kushnapup bullpup stock for Saigas was a scam like this. Lots of preorders, little feedback, and when the fellows running the show did open their mouths, it was profoundly unimpressive.

They delivered, apparently. I have heard no bad rumblings, and product has been delivered.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Where did I "proclaim a problem"??
Really?

Quote:
Mark my words... later this year, you're going to be hearing about companies like this, taking the money- and running...
Your title also gives the indication that you are making a query, and then you state how there will be problems, but you won't name names because no such problem actually exists, but you have stated it will exist, and you have used a gun company as an example.

Of course, you may be making a warning of virtually useless value. "Look out, some companies may take money from someone and not deliver."

Well, gosh, yes they will, somewhere and sometime, but you what you are offering as evidence has no value. It also fails to note long standing businesses that may do the same thing, which will undoubtedly happen to somebody sometime and somewhere whether by pre-order or not.

The crux of your claim comes down to saying not to pre-order and pre-pay from new companies because there is no basis for which to trust that they will deliver, but you offer no evidence of this actually occurring in the firearms framework about which you are warning us.
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Old January 27, 2013, 03:37 AM   #12
warningshot
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tobnpr is doing us a favor.

Sounds like a scam.

"A credit card number holds your order but we won't bill you until the merchandise is sent", "A Letter of Credit", A Performance Clause, A Referral or verification of past business reputation. Not, 'Gimme your money now'.

Yes, I saw the 'Open Range' road sign. But unless or until I verify the eartag numbers on those cows I'm not slowing down.
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Old January 27, 2013, 04:34 AM   #13
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I have no problem with this post . You know there are going to be companies screwing people over cus of this panic .

Im not saying this is why they are doing it like they are but I would think in order to get an item after it had been banned you would have had to pay for it and a serial # made for it . I would think if you paid in full and there was a serial # generated at the time of the sale . You would be able to take possession of it even after an AWB was in place as long as the sale was pre-ban . Just a thought . If that's why it's good for us and them .
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Old January 27, 2013, 05:55 PM   #14
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I agree this post is worthless without specifics.

How long does it take to get a manufacturers license?
If the company JUST sprang up and doesn't have a license they sure as hell won't be delivering any product in June.
If it is a retail site or new distributor, how are they going to get any product?

More than likely it is a supplier that has had products under someone else's brand.
If you give permission to charge your card and the company then disappears, it isn't always that easy to get your money back. The CC company does not re-reimburse it, the company has to. When there is a problem from a big retailer they will usually cave on the issue b/c they don't want the CC company to take away service for bad reports. In fraud with a ghost corp that isn't a concern.

It is totally different than when someone charges your card without permission.
Quote:
I would think if you paid in full and there was a serial # generated at the time of the sale . You would be able to take possession of it even after an AWB was in place as long as the sale was pre-ban . Just a thought . If that's why it's good for us and them .
I don't think so. I thought about this, but I don't think it will fly. Many agree with me or companies would be advertising it.

I worry more about the companies that ONLY make guns that may be legislated. If you pre-order and they go under following a ban, you are probably SOL. You will have an unsecured debt and it would be a rarity for there to be assets beyond secured debt. Of course, the president could step in a la GM&unions, but I doubt it.
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Old January 27, 2013, 06:13 PM   #15
sirdiealot
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I have a hard enough time giving reputable companies my money without some sort of timeline in normal pre panic times. these days with how crazy it is there is no way i would give someone my hard earned money for a promise that they will get some in the future
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:34 AM   #16
edfrompa
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Worthless post. Like telling someone there is snakes in the woods but not saying where. Take your chances and get bit. Thanks for the heads up.
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:57 AM   #17
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From what I have read in various sources, there are actually only about two or three sources for AR lowers in the entire country. It appears (if I understood correctly) that almost all the "manufacturers" are either buying and re-branding finished lowers, or are buying forgings or castings from the same two or three sources and just finishing them off.

Any new "manufacturer" would most likely have to be buying its lowers from the same pool of sources, which would probably mean they would have to get in line and wait. Delivery by June appears to me to be extremely unlikely.

I also agree that raising this concern without identifying the company is useless.
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Old February 2, 2013, 11:07 AM   #18
dajowi
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I don't have to go to the internet to get ripped off. I can go to a local gun store who just a short time ago sold 100 round boxes of Mini-Mag .22 for $3.56, now because of the panic is selling the 100 round boxes for $10.00.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:35 PM   #19
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I can go to a local gun store who just a short time ago sold 100 round boxes of Mini-Mag .22 for $3.56,
That was a loooong time ago.
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Old February 2, 2013, 02:08 PM   #20
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As a post for a discussion, on the general subject I'm ok with the OP. As a post to warn us about a specific situation, without specifics, it's not worth much.

As to the general situation, as far as I know, the legal process is not involved until after you don't get your goods by the date promised (with a "reasonable" window of extension). Then, your option is to bring suit in court.

Anytime you pay upfront for something, you risk loss. Rarely, it is a deliberate scam, commonly, its not. We do it all the time with little things, like fast food, but with bigger things, there is always a small risk. ITs up to you to determine if it is justified.

A company in financial trouble can take orders (and payments) until the day they close their doors. ITs not good faith to do so, but sometimes the people taking the orders don't know that. They may not even know the doors are going to be closed, until it happens!

Checking on the business license, and other public records of new or unknown businesses before giving your money seems prudent to me. That kind of "background check" actually has some personal value.
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Old February 2, 2013, 02:16 PM   #21
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My question is whether it would be wise to enter into such an agreement at all. Not from a question of whether the company is going to make it or not, but from the point that we have no idea what pending legislation would do to such a deal if passed.
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Old February 2, 2013, 04:15 PM   #22
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What many people don't understand is that under the Fair Credit Billing Act, you only have 60 days to dispute (in writing) a billing error from the date of first billing. A billing error would include charges for undelivered goods. The credit card company would be under no obligation under FCBA to charge back the merchant account.

So, as long as the buyer understands they are essentially loaning their money to this company without the benefit of a credit history or any collateral, then it's on the buyer, IMO. Just don't whine if you lose your money.
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Old February 4, 2013, 12:00 PM   #23
tirod
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Apparently most agree the potential exists, there are businesses who do this legitimately with a good track record, but nobody will point out who they think it is?

We've got 23 posts and nobody has searched and recovered names of the OP's potential victimizers. That means everyone agrees - they don't want to be the one to out the company, either.

Since no illegal act has yet occurred, it's not chancy at all. Unfortunately, it takes the actual commission, and then conviction, to say somebody has been wronged. And since these things do happen correctly with some frequency, saying "these guys are planning to rip you off" has no credibility.

Not that they can't - there's just no possible way to tell. What we are dealing with is an interpretation of the circumstances and filtering it thru our experience to forecast a possible result. We all do this, all day long.

Like, if I sit here in my jammies typing much longer this morning, I AM going to hear about if from my wife.

Just for other side of the coin, we've got an year long window, if not more, of unanticipated demand, and plenty of incentive to make a profit. Any CNC shop of repute can machine uppers and lowers to spec - most of the receivers sold come from shops that don't forge. Even Colt buys finished receivers and doesn't do the work inhouse ( all you Colt fans need to wise up. ) If the platter forgers add a shift and get busy, there's plenty to go around for the next year, nobody is going to ignore the profit.

Just in time for all those pensions and banks to bail out, too. Oh well, their bad.

CNC isn't the hard part, the blueprints and tolerances are practically public knowledge. The programming isn't difficult, those folks capable are already hired. The shops have an incentive to fill the schedule and reduce down time. There's plenty of room to open up another line and make more receivers - which are going to sell. The QC is the critical issue, I don't see aerospace or turbine makers having any major difficulties. Me, I bought an AGP lower two years ago - same guys who make turbo kits for tuners.

Should you be cautious, yes. Are they going to rip you off? If nothing materializes, the credit card company stands the risk - duh - don't pay the bill until after delivery.

BTW, check and see if you get popped for the extra 4%. That is much more likely.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:02 PM   #24
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
Should you be cautious, yes. Are they going to rip you off? If nothing materializes, the credit card company stands the risk - duh - don't pay the bill until after delivery.
We've been over this already - YOU are on the hook, not the credit card company, unless you find out you've been screwed early enough to file a complaint within 60 days of the date the credit card company mailed you the bill that included the charge for the deposit you put down.
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:30 PM   #25
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Not sure if this is the same. I just went down this road with a Stock I just purchased. Was told by Company stock would be delivered by said date for my F-class first shoot. Stock did not ship. After 4 phone calls over a 3 week longer period and still not ship ,but card was charged. I called the legal agency. WHat i found out ( In Minnesota). Company can tale 1/2 of purchase price right away. Second half can be taken when item shippes. If item does not ship with in 7 to 10 days of taking rest of money,by law they have 3 to 5 days to credit back money or you can file a law suit against them.
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