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Old February 5, 2013, 10:37 PM   #1
Pops1085
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Anybody have any experience with 30-06 hollow points?

Am just curious about whether or not anybody has ever used them? Do they even make them commercially? I could imagine the amount of damage that it would do to something like a deer would be phenomenal!
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Old February 5, 2013, 11:04 PM   #2
Pops1085
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So... A little embarassed about this but I just did a google search on hollow point 30-06 rounds... Did not know that a ballistic tip was almost the exact same thing as a HP. That might explain why the last deer I shot with hornady ammo destroyed the chest cavity... Oh well you learn something new every day
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Old February 6, 2013, 01:23 AM   #3
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Lots and lots of folks shoot 30-06 HP rounds. A lot of target ammo is loaded with HP rounds (better weight distribution within the bullet). As to whether or not to shoot deer with them, since most 30-caliber hollow point rounds are target rounds and not designed to expand, I do not imagine it would have the same explosive expansion as a hollow point bullet for a handgun or a HP varminting round. They have a much heavier jacket. The military even uses a hollow point bullet for their sniper cartridges. It does not expand at all, does not have explosive expansion, just drills a neat little hole right through things.

And yes, a Ballistic Tip is in fact a hollow point with a little plastic wedge in the tip to make it expand. And does it ever expand! The old Remington Bronze Points and Winchester Silver Tips were almost exactly the same thing, only they used a metal point instead of plastic.
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Old February 6, 2013, 04:21 AM   #4
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one

The only traditional game bullet in .30 cal that I can think of, that is intended for deer size game is the Sierra 165 gr HP in the Game King line. I have only read a bit on them, but they are alleged to be very accurate. Note that this is a component and not loaded ammo.

Note that the Berger people are selling a high dollar match type bullet that is billed as a "hunting" slug.

Once upon a time, the US ammo companies sold HP ammo in .30-30. I have not seen any in a long while.
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Old February 6, 2013, 07:04 AM   #5
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several decades ago, I used 110 grain HP in a 30/06 on coyotes. Couldn't see much difference between those and 125 Sierra SP. I've sent quite a few HPBT match bullets downrange from 30/06 & 308.
Last fall, I used Nosler 155 HPBT to kill 2 coyotes, a bobcat, and a deer. Overall performance was not optimal. Explosive expansion when it hit bone on the deer and zero expansion on the smaller animals.

I've used the Sierra GK HP in other calibers and it worked as well as any other cup and core bullet.
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Old February 6, 2013, 09:00 AM   #6
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I load 150gr Sierra HP in 30-06 for my cousin. He has been using them for hunting for 20 years or so. Has had great success with them, but he always uses boiler room shots. The damage is impressive.
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Old February 6, 2013, 10:21 AM   #7
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The operative word in your question is "imagine". Good fodder for the anti-gunners who know nothing about guns, ammo, etc.
Yes, I used hp in the form of Sierra Match Kings and won matches with them.
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Old February 6, 2013, 11:16 AM   #8
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Hollow point rifle bullets are made more for accuracy and balance rather than violent expansion - by moving the center of gravity farther back, the bullet tends to be more stable. In my experience, a normal soft-tip hunting bullet expands a lot more than most jacketed HPs. Ballistic tip designs pretty much combine the ballistics and accuracy of the hollowpoint design with the expansion of a JSP. They generally do very well on both counts.
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Old February 6, 2013, 12:21 PM   #9
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I found that the Sierra GameKing 165-grain HPBT was quite accurate in my '06. My one experience on a deer at very close range could be described as "successful but messy". A Sierra guy who took part in a thread here about their bullets said that their lighter-weight boat-tail bullets in 30-caliber should not be driven at muzzle velocities above (roughly) 2,800 feet per second for close-range hits on Bambi. 150, 165. If the velocity at impact is around 2,700 ft/sec, they won't blow up.

The Federal Premium High-Energy '06 cartridge uses the Sierra 165-grain HPBT. Muzzle velocity of 3,150 from a 26" barrel. Believable: I shot a coyote in the chest with one and it removed a clenched-fist amount of chest. Probably a good load for elk at 200 or 300 yards, maybe more.

The flat-base bullets won't blow up.
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Old February 6, 2013, 06:07 PM   #10
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I have studied terminal ballistics for 4 decades now and have over 200 bullets recovered from game animals, so I do have some knowledge of this subject. There are some incorrect statement above. The 30-30 is still loaded with 170 grain hollow points by Remington. Federal is also loading a 125 grain hollowpoint 30-30 round. Yes there are a few manufacturers that load hollow points in 30-06. Winchester is currently loading their POWER MAX line of ammo which is a hollow point. I have shot 2 antelope and 2 mule deer bucks with them and WOW they do indeed expand. The US is currently using hp ammo which is a violation of the Hauge convention. As I understand it, the government is not bound by this convention at this time as we are fighting non uniformed terrorists, not identifyable combantants, thus the use of this ammo is not in violation of the law. The above sentence I have heard but have not confirmed. Can anyone shed so light on this subject? Hollowpoint ammo IS made to expand and rapidly in most cases. Barnes X bullets were all hollowpoint at first. There were a few exceptions to the rule. Peters old Belted Non Desintigrating bullet was a hollowpoint desigh for deep penatration as was Remingtons older Mushroom Cor-Lokts. These 2 designs were built with a heavy jacket all the way to the nose end with no lead exposed, thus slowing expanansion for deep penatration. The newer Winchester Power Max bullets I used on game are so fast expanding that their manufactuer is advising against their use on game larger than deer as they expand too fast for large game. I recover 2 of these bullets from mule deer and their expansion was so violent that the penatraion was mere inches. I will photografh the 2 I recovered if the forum would like to see them. From decades of removing bullets from game I can make a general observation. Hollowpoints are very fast expanding bullets for smaller big game with a few exceptions. Does any forum member have some recovered hollowpoints to share with this forum.
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Old February 6, 2013, 07:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester
I have studied terminal ballistics for 4 decades now
Hmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester
The US is currently using hp ammo which is a violation of the Hauge convention.
No. You are completely wrong.

Open Tip Match: When a “Hollow Point” is Not a Hollow Point

Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition, W. Hays Parks, Colonel, USMC,
Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch


For those too lazy to read the links, The Hague accords do not cover hollow point bullets, they cover
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hague Declaration Concerning Expanding Bullets of 29 July 1899
...bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions
Some hollow point bullets certainly fit this category, but not all. Match HP bullets, such as the Sierra MatchKings used by the military are designed to be consistent and accurate, with no regard given at all for expansion. The fact they have an open tip is because of how they were manufactured, and has nothing to do with expansion.

Tests have shown they SMK's don't behave terminally any different than FMJ bullets. For this reason, Sierra states on every page of their load manuals with data for MatchKings: "Sierra does not recommend MatchKing bullets for hunting applications".

I am surprised someone who has studied terminal ballistics for 40 years wouldn't know this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 30-30remchester
As I understand it, the government is not bound by this convention at this time as we are fighting non uniformed terrorists, not identifyable combantants, thus the use of this ammo is not in violation of the law. The above sentence I have heard but have not confirmed. Can anyone shed so light on this subject?
Actually while the US does adhere to the Hague accords, we were not part of the Hague declaration, so we would not be "bound" by them in any way.

Even if match hollow point ammunition was covered by them (which it isn't).

Now, to the original question, I have used some of the .308 110gr HP Sierra "Varminter" bullets in my .308 Win on Ground squirrels, and they worked as advertised, although the accuracy wasn't great in my rifle.

I have also used the 168gr SMK in my M1 and they work quite well for target shooting.
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Old February 6, 2013, 08:32 PM   #12
Art Eatman
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Yeah, the Hague deal speaks to using only non-expanding bullets.

But, since this is basically about thirty-caliber hollow-point in common usage, the Hague thing is off-topic.
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Old February 6, 2013, 08:45 PM   #13
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I shoot more match king hp than any other bullet in 30 caliber. Most are loaded into 300 win mag cases.
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Old February 6, 2013, 09:15 PM   #14
kilotanker22
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I really like the 165 grain sierra game king hollow points. In the 30-06. Have a few good loads with them. Really accurate with an old 700 bdl I used to have.
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Old February 7, 2013, 01:24 AM   #15
emcon5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Eatman
But, since this is basically about thirty-caliber hollow-point in common usage, the Hague thing is off-topic.
Indeed it is, and my apologies. It is just when someone posts complete nonsense and essentially accuses our military of war crimes, I just can't leave it alone.

Pops1085, I guess the short answer to your question is he observation that there are a lot of different types of hollow points, with differing performance based on different design decisions based on the intended use.

Varmint hollow points, designed for extremely rapid expansion in small thin skinned game would probably make a mess in a deer, but without deep penetration, and while probably fatal would not be instantly so.

Match hollow points don't generally expand at all, and would most likely act like a FMJ, pass right through with a smallish exit wound. As mentioned, not really suitable for hunting.

Medium/big game hunting hollow points are designed to expand in larger game with good penetration, and would work great for deer.

To further confuse things, bringing the polymer tips into the equasion, there are Match (Hornady AMAX) Varmit (Hornady V-Max, Sierra Blitzking, Nosler BT-Varmint) and big game (Hornady SST, Nosler BT-Hunting) versions of those as well.

Clear as mud?
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Old February 7, 2013, 01:39 AM   #16
Pops1085
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Haha emcon5 thank you for not being an ahole about it. I admit, I'm as green as grass when it comes to reloading but from the little I have managed to read up on it it sounds fascinating! Like I said in an earlier post I was sitting there thinking about how well my little 30-30 preformed with sp hollow points back in the day and thought gee I bet a similar bullet from my 30-06 hitting with nearly 800 ft/lbs more would be devastating on a deer. Obviously it wouldn't be ideal if you wanted meat on the table but it sure would make sure a trophy isn't going anywhere
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Old February 7, 2013, 01:56 AM   #17
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The .30 caliber is by far the most popular caliber for ammo and reloading in the US. If a bullet type exists it is likely available in .308" and is being used.
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Old February 7, 2013, 11:52 AM   #18
Art Eatman
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Pops1085, I keep telling folks, "Don't shoot Bambi in the eatin' part!"
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Old February 8, 2013, 11:13 AM   #19
kilotanker22
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I agree with art don't shoot the meat you won't ruin any. A deer I shot with my 300 win mag couple years ago heart shot bullet never exited but no meat loss.
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Old February 8, 2013, 11:12 PM   #20
30-30remchester
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I have been gone for a couple of days and now my wife who does all my photographic work is gone for a week. If this thread is still going, I will post a few photos. I have 6 or 7 Sierra hpbt's recovered from game as well as the Winchester Power max mentioned earlier. Also have a handfull of the older Remington Mushroom Cor-Lokts I have recovered from bigger game such as elk and buffalo.
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Old February 9, 2013, 12:13 AM   #21
Savage99
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I have used hollow point bullets in many of my rifles for a long time.

I load the Berger 155 VLD in my 30-06 for hunting. Here is a large buck that was stopped quickly with the 155 VLD at 280 yards.

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Old February 10, 2013, 12:02 AM   #22
Pops1085
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thats a hell of a nice buck, I knew hp's couldn't be a bad idea thanks for sharing!
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