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Old February 1, 2013, 02:32 PM   #1
ronval912
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Antique Firearm Exempted from gun laws

I have an 1892 Lebel revolver that my mother bequeathed to me when she passed away a few years ago. The gun once belonged to my father who collected it during his time fighting in WW II at the Battle of the Bulge. The gun was used by the French military and this particular gun was manufactured in 1902. I live in Florida and the FL guns laws exempt “antique firearms” from most of the gun laws including conceal/carry. An antique firearm is defined as any firearm manufactured before 1918. Does anybody have any thoughts on this and my using this as a concealed weapon without a conceal carry permit?
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Old February 1, 2013, 02:38 PM   #2
jason_iowa
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If you were carrying it loaded as a weapon I would think that you are breaking the spirit of the law. <not a lawyer>

I would not risk it being confiscated or damaged by an over zealous peace officer.
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Old February 1, 2013, 02:55 PM   #3
ohen cepel
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I wouldn't do it. It may be exempt from firearms law but that does not mean it's not a weapon and that they could still charge you with a concealed weapon.

ie: a knife isn't a firearm but can be a concealed weapon.

Plus, if you like it you risk losing it and it's not a very good weapon to bet one's life on these days.
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:23 PM   #4
Salmoneye
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'Antique' as I understand it, is built before 1898...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/coll...que-definition

No idea where you are coming up with 1918...

ADDING:

OK

I see now that FLA law defines differently than the Federal laws...

Answer is to consult a lawyer familiar with FLA law...
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:36 PM   #5
JimDandy
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And just get a modern permit for a modern firearm. Carry is hard on a firearm. Much better to carry one you can replace even before you get into reliability concerns.
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Old February 1, 2013, 07:17 PM   #6
ronval912
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Quote:
Today 04:36 PM
JimDandy And just get a modern permit for a modern firearm. Carry is hard on a firearm. Much better to carry one you can replace even before you get into reliability concerns.
Sounds like sound advice. This may be a question for another forum but do you have any suggestions for a smallish revolver thats easy to care for and has cheap ammo?
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:28 PM   #7
hermannr
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For all the nay sayers...exempt is exempt...if the state of FL has decided something manufactured prior to 1918 is not a firearm, it is not a firearm.

Just like for purposes of Federal law , anything manufactured prior to 1898, or anything that is a replica of same, is not a firearm, it's not a firearm under federal law.

Just be sure of what the law specifiicly exempts, and from what part of the law it does exempt it.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:45 PM   #8
Frank Ettin
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Exempt may be exempt, but there has to be a better idea than carrying a 110 year old revolver for self defense on a regular basis.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:58 PM   #9
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Looking at the Florida Statutes, it doesn't qualify as a "firearm", but I think it still counts as a "weapon", and Florida issues "Concealed Weapon or Firearm" licenses. So, you probably still need a license to carry it concealed.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:21 PM   #10
ronval912
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From the FL statutes

(6) “Firearm” means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term “firearm” does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

(1) “Antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured in or before 1918 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar early type of ignition system) or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1918, and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1918, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(2) “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.
(b) “Tear gas gun” or “chemical weapon or device” means any weapon of such nature, except a device known as a “self-defense chemical spray.” “Self-defense chemical spray” means a device carried solely for purposes of lawful self-defense that is compact in size, designed to be carried on or about the person, and contains not more than two ounces of chemical.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:24 PM   #11
ohen cepel
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This would be my concern though:

(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

It may not be a firearm in their book, but it is a deadly weapon.

Also, if they charge you with anything, then it is used in a crime and would be a firearm again.

In the end, I just think it's a bad idea for several reasons.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:24 PM   #12
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
From the FL statutes

(6) “Firearm” means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term “firearm” does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

(1) “Antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured in or before 1918 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar early type of ignition system) or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1918, and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1918, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

(2) “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.
(b) “Tear gas gun” or “chemical weapon or device” means any weapon of such nature, except a device known as a “self-defense chemical spray.” “Self-defense chemical spray” means a device carried solely for purposes of lawful self-defense that is compact in size, designed to be carried on or about the person, and contains not more than two ounces of chemical.
So while not a 'firearm', I don't think you can make a good argument for it not being a 'weapon', and Florida has a license that you need to carry a concealed weapon.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:30 PM   #13
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ron, the procedure for getting a carry permit in FL is a cakewalk. People up here in NJ get them so they can carry in neighboring states that have a reciprocal agreement with FL -- like PA. Plus, why would you want to carry an antique sidearm that ammo is difficult to come by? Why don't you just get a carry permit?

ETA: Oops, sorry Scott. My bad.

Last edited by 2ndsojourn; February 1, 2013 at 09:45 PM.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:32 PM   #14
Frank Ettin
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ronval912,

Is there some reason you don't want or can't get a Florida concealed weapons permit? It's a "shall issue" State and the requirements aren't very onerous.

The best choice is to get the permit and a modern handgun. There are any number of suitable, small revolves, include several small frame revolvers made by Smith & Wesson.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:33 PM   #15
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
Scott, the procedure for getting a carry permit in FL is a cakewalk. People up here in NJ get them so they can carry in neighboring states that have a reciprocal agreement with FL -- like PA. Plus, why would you want to carry an antique sidearm that ammo is difficult to come by? Why don't you just get a carry permit?
I'm not the original poster - I'm one of the ones telling him that he probably *does* need a carry permit if he wants to carry a concealed weapon - firearm or not, antique or not.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:48 PM   #16
ronval912
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Frank,


There is no reason other than I already have have the Lebel and just purchased the 8 mm FMJ ammo online. Based on the discussion, it seems that getting the C/C permit and purchasing a small frame revovler may be the best thing to do. My father also collected a Colt 25 which I have now but it was built after 1918 and my be too small for carry unless there is a better round out there to buy.
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Old February 1, 2013, 11:10 PM   #17
hermannr
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The way I read that FL law, yes, it probably would be illegal to carry the Lebel concealed, under the "dangerous weapon" clause...BUT I see no similar prohibition to carrying it openly.

The prohibitions on Open Carry (709.053) prohibits the open carry of a firearm or electronic device...but it does not say "weapon", as it does for concealed.

So, robval912, it appears you can Open Carry of you antique revolver without a license in FL (because it is not a "firearm")

I would strongly suggest you read all of chapter 709, but that is what I read. And as I open carry all the time, and advocate doing so, is why I went looking to see what the open carry rules were.

My biggest concern with any carry of your Lebel is if you actually have to use it, it may be siezed for evidence, and it may not be returned in the same shape it was when siezed..Fl humidity being what it is, Of course, if you needed it, and used it, that would be better than not having anything,

Last edited by hermannr; February 1, 2013 at 11:28 PM.
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Old February 2, 2013, 12:55 AM   #18
JimDandy
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Open Carrying the Lebel because of a linguisitic difference between open carry and concealed carry laws sounds an awful lot like poking the bear when the cage door is closed but not latched.

There are a hundred ways we can say it's probably legal. There's also a hundred ways it could be legal until one of a hundred different "except when..." can pop up. For example, if he gets stopped next to a school he's boned. The feds evidentally call it a firearm. And the feds don't exempt you from the 1000 yard school zone until you have a state issued Concealed carry permit.

As for picking a revolver... You can get a snub nosed Smith and Wesson without too much looking. I don't know revolvers well at all however, so I suggest going to the revolver forum for knowledgeable advice.

Why do you want a revolver over a semi? A .357 revolver will let you practice with 38 special, and load 38 Special +P or .357 magnum defensive rounds. .38 isn't expensive. But it's not super cheap either. The 9x19 semi automatic chambering is very inexpensive to shoot for practice. However, your best bet is to go to the handgun forums, and ask around there, then go to a range that rents handguns and try them out for feel to find the ones you like.
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Old February 2, 2013, 10:56 AM   #19
ronval912
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Jim,

The reason for wanting a revolver over a semi is that that a double-action revolver seems to to be an inherently safer and and easier to operate handgun than the semi. (That may be my ignorance talking there, I'll definitely go to the other forums to educate myself). My point of reference is the the two antique handguns I own which is the double-action Lebel revolver and the semi-automatic Colt 25. Additionally, it seem that if I kept the Colt loaded all the time, the clip spring would eventually wear out and may not feed the rounds smoothly into the chamber.
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Old February 2, 2013, 11:36 AM   #20
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronval912
The reason for wanting a revolver over a semi is that that a double-action revolver seems to to be an inherently safer and and easier to operate handgun than the semi. (That may be my ignorance talking there, I'll definitely go to the other forums to educate myself)....
Let me suggest that your best first order of business would be an NRA Basic Handgun class. There are good things about revolvers and good things about semi-autos. And there are the issues of understanding safe handling and proper shooting of both types of handguns.

The most efficient way to begin learning the things you will want to know is a good class.
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Old February 2, 2013, 12:05 PM   #21
ronval912
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Frank,
Agreed.

Thanks for the input.
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Old February 2, 2013, 12:43 PM   #22
Willie Sutton
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^^^ Neither of the choices belong anyplace but in a gun safe as curios.

The Lebel because, well... it's a Lebel.

The .25 because, well... it's a .25


Neither is suitable for any sort of self defense (although you can leave the 25 loaded for the rest of your life and it's not going to weaken the magazine spring).


Get some training.

Get a CCW.

Buy a modern handgun of your choice to add to your "Historical Handgun Collection, be it ever so humble".


Willie

.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:18 PM   #23
ronval912
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Yep. I'm convinced. Thanks for the advice Willie.
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Old February 2, 2013, 05:09 PM   #24
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As an afterthought, do you really want to be arguing with a cop, who probably has no idea of what the law actually is.
Or the difference between a modern and antique gun.
All the cop sees is Gun.
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Old February 2, 2013, 05:19 PM   #25
ronval912
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Your right. I would be arrested, have to post bail, until my lawyer could point out that its not a firearm by definition. A hassle to say the least.
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