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Old August 31, 2013, 01:07 PM   #1
rrruger
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point shooting from the hip ?

I am interested in learning to point shoot from the hip like the FBI training films of the 1940's.
Would any of you know anyone in the Phoenix area that would offer this training?
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Old August 31, 2013, 10:46 PM   #2
ClydeFrog
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CQB or point shooting...

Id look into the training doctrine of COL Rex Applegate.
See; www.paladin-press.com www.deltapress.com www.nra.org .
I would advise against "hip" shooting or the reflex/CQB methods.
Those are for advanced/highly trained armed professionals.
If you have a lethal force event you'd have to explain to a homicide detective or jury how you did not aim your weapon's sights at the subject, only using trick shooting.

Clyde
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Old August 31, 2013, 11:07 PM   #3
Deaf Smith
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Clyde,

I have never heard of a LEO or prosecutor ask if you used your sights or not.

Asked about hollowpoints? Yes.
Ask about modifications to the gun? Yes.
But did you use your sights? No.

Not to mention in darkness I doubt you could see the sights.

And while I am on the record in many a forum of using a combination of hip/retention and a form of sighted fire, still there can be times point shooting would be the best method for that particular individual and that particular situation just as one handed shooting has it's place.

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Old August 31, 2013, 11:29 PM   #4
Wreck-n-Crew
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Still could be in big trouble if it hit a bystander.
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Old September 1, 2013, 12:26 AM   #5
allaroundhunter
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point shooting from the hip ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wreck-n-Crew View Post
Still could be in big trouble if it hit a bystander.
That's a given whether you use your sights or not....

Seriously, if you want to shoot from the hip just practice. That is the best thing that you can do.
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Old September 1, 2013, 01:38 AM   #6
Ridgerunner665
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All theoretical legal ramifications aside...

Point shooting just takes practice, a lot of it, but thats all it takes....its a skill that cannot be taught per se....it must be acquired through practice.

I first began hip shooting with a BB gun when I was a wee lad...after a few thousand BB's I could knock those Pepsi cans off a log like Lucas McCain (it was a Red Rider BB gun), I never really set out to "learn" anything, I just thought it was fun (I learned it by accident, lol)....and to this day I can be quite lethal with a lever action rifle that I'm familiar with.

The fundamentals of doing it with a pistol aren't much different...I got good at it with a 1911, then switched to carrying a Glock 36...had to start all over again, but now I'm pretty good with the Glock too.

Practice, practice, practice...

Last edited by Ridgerunner665; September 1, 2013 at 03:24 AM.
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Old September 1, 2013, 09:01 AM   #7
kraigwy
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Point shooting is as natural as pointing your finger.

That's all you're really doing, pointing your finger. Using a handgun in this manner is just an extension of pointing you finger.

Its not really something that needs taught in firearm classes, no more then you need to go to school to learn to point your finger.

You already know how to point you finger, but to be accurate you need practice. Lots and lots of practice.

First off, forget about shooting from the waste, or should I say pointing. Set up your (full size man style target). Stand up facing the target (don't need a gun right now). Look at the center of the target, then quickly bring your hand to eye level and point at the center of the target.

As you look at your finger you'll notice its pointing where you look. Keep doing this, getting faster and faster. Each time you'll find you are pointing were you are looking.

Now go to the range with an empty gun. You heard, keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

We're not ready to shoot at this point so keep your finger pointed along he side of the pistol/revolver.

Continue your pointing exercise as you did without the gun. I know you said shooting from the hip, don't worry about it, we'll get there. Just keep pointing your finger where you eyes are concentrated (in the center of the target). With practice you'll get faster and more accurate.

Now move up to the target where you can poking your finger at the center. Go back to pointing your finger, which is along side the EMPTY gun, stabbing the barrel where you are concentrating your gaze, or where you are looking.

Keep practicing this exercise, jabbing the target with the muzzle of your handgun.

Now back off about thee feet, (one yard) and try to jab your target again, only this time you cant reach it, but you are pointing your finger (gun) at the center of the target where you are looking.

Now assuming you're at the range and its safe to do so. Load your gun. Don't worry about drawing right now. Hold your pistol/revolve down, (pointing at the ground, not your feet). (you're still at 3 feet/1 yard). Concentrate on the center of the target, raise your gun and point, then pull the trigger.

Make sure you're not sweeping your leg or any other part of the body. You'll find your hitting the center of the target. Keep practicing and you'll see you're shots are hitting where you are looking.

Now move back 3 yards. Continue the exercise, I mean keep at it. If you're shots start to go wild, forget shooting and point with your finger along side the pistol/revolver.

But that shouldn't be a problem, stay at three yards and practice. You're not target shooting, you're practicing defensive shooting, you don't care about keeping the rounds in the X ring, you want to keep them in the vital area, which is a pretty large area.

Now, lets move to the exercise I use in my women's self defense class to get them familiar with and un-afraid of the gun.

The average self defense shooting is referred to as the "three-threes", meaning less then 3 shots, in less then 3 seconds, in less then 3 yards.

So practice this, preferable with a shot timer. At the buzzard, raise the gun to waist level fire three rounds in less then three seconds.

Ok back to the gun safety/finger pointing exercise. Remember keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. That's an advantage in point shooting because you want to point your finger. So you don't want to put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. So you're point your finger, which is natural. After you point your finger at the center of the target, put your finger on the trigger and shoot.

Practice this for a couple hundred rounds. Remember no holster, but from the gun point down.

After you get good, then we move to the holster. But if we interject something new (the holster) we need to go back to zero with our training. Set the gun aside and stick your hand in the holster, pointing or trigger finger extended and start the whole progress again. Bring your finger from the holster up to eye level so you can see that you are pointing where you are looking.

Continue the progression mentioned above until you get to 3 shots in three seconds at three yards. If you shots start going wild, slow down and work your way up again.

The problem you need to watch out for, is at 3 yards and less, you are exposing your gun to the target, which if it's a bandit, he can grab or deflect it. You need to do your practice without extending your arms. Keep the gun in close to your body.

The whole exercise is done shooting with one hand. If you have time to use both hands you have time to move the gun up to eye level and use the sights.

If this sounds simple it's because it is simple. It's totally natural to point your finger at something you're looking at. Its easy to make a handgun an extension of your finger so its natural to for the gun to point where your finger is pointing.

Now the problem with point shooting.

Point shooting is defense of close combat shooting. You want it to be fast or you are defeating the purpose.

When you point your finger at an object, your finger stops when it gets to that object. Lets look at physics a second. We know its harder to stop a heavy object then it is a light object. The hand is light, so its easy to stop once it's pointed at the target. Same with a gun, if its a small light gun, you can stop it when its pointed where you want.

If you have a large heavy gun, its going to want to keep moving as you bring it up to the target, which means you're going to be shooting high when you practice your point shooting.

Again point shooting is self-defense/close quarter shooting. You don't need a heavy gun, you need something small you can conceal and can shoot without recoil screwing up everything.

I shoot a lot of action style competition with a revolver. I wanted to use the same revolver I carried in my 20 years in LE, a Model 28, The Model 28, an excellent service revolver is heavy, in action style matches, you have multiple targets meaning you have to move the gun from one target to the other. Being heavy, it doesn't want to stop moving, causing me to swing past the next target. To combat this, I went to a lighter K frame (M-64).

The same thing applies to point shooting, light is better, you don't want weight carrying you through the target.

In summation, we all know how to point, we don't need to pay someone to teach us to point. You'd be better off taking that money and buy ammo (or components) to practice.

As I mentioned before, I teach women's firearm safety and self defense. Many of these ladies never had fired a handgun before the classes. You'd be surprised how quick these ladies get a grasp on point shooting.

I know this is long winded, but I think it covers point shooting for self defense/close quarter shooting.

Again it should be done with one hand. In self defense shooting you normally always have something in the other hand. For this reason it should be down with both strong and weak hands.
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Old September 1, 2013, 09:38 AM   #8
g.willikers
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Yes, what he said.
Instinctive or point shooting is practicing a technique until it's natural.
Lots of practice.
Both one handed and two handed.
And it doesn't have to be just short distances.
Much longer ones are doable, too.
All it takes is having the confidence to know the shot can be made.
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Old September 1, 2013, 12:02 PM   #9
Jim243
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Quote:
I would advise against "hip" shooting or the reflex/CQB method

You might want to get into SASS if you have to do this.

Remember, even Wild Bill Hickok took time to AIM. You just can't miss fast enough.

Jim
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Old September 1, 2013, 12:15 PM   #10
Ridgerunner665
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You do aim when point shooting...

Just not in the generally accepted way.

Its difficult to explain, but there is a sight picture involved...just without the sights.

Its basically visual triangulation...which can be done very fast, almost subconsciously...and plenty accurate at across the room distances.

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Old September 1, 2013, 12:56 PM   #11
Blue Duck
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You need to practice hip shooting (one handed) because it's very likely the skill needed in a real self defense situation. You won't need to use it, unless practically at touching distance, but quite often, that is the range you will be fighting at, if it every happens to you.

I often practice on a IDPA man target at about 2 to 4 feet, fast as I can possibly draw and fire. The bad guys know about closing distance, and surprise attacks.
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Old September 1, 2013, 03:36 PM   #12
Al Thompson
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Thell Reed may, repeat, may be in your area for some classes.
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Old September 1, 2013, 04:25 PM   #13
40-82
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The main thing about hip shooting/point shooting is practice, and not trying to be too fast too soon. More than one person who was determined to be an over night expert has ended up shooting himself. Besides, if a timer is used quite often the person with the fastest time will look much slower than a beginner with jerky awkward movements. No trained shooter is likely to rely on hip shooting if he has the time or the room or the light to use his sights. That said, I regard it as an important skill worth practicing because you cannot assume for instance that if you can shoot a ragged hole slow fire off handed at fifteen yards that you can also hit a full silhouette target fast from the holster at fifteen feet if you've never practiced it.
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Old September 1, 2013, 04:42 PM   #14
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I would take Bill Jordan's advice and use wax bullets, lots of practice at low cost.
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Old September 1, 2013, 04:48 PM   #15
g.willikers
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Practice with airsoft.
Then you can risk shooting yerself as much as you want.
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Old September 1, 2013, 04:55 PM   #16
4V50 Gary
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Keep the distance short. We did.
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Old September 1, 2013, 05:10 PM   #17
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idk, as much as i admire the skill it takes to hit targets without looking down the sights. i don't actually see the purpose of hip shooting. alot of reflex shooting methods actually allow for a sight picture, however brief.
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Old September 1, 2013, 05:52 PM   #18
g.willikers
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What, you were never tempted to imitate The Rifleman??
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Old September 1, 2013, 07:11 PM   #19
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
idk, as much as i admire the skill it takes to hit targets without looking down the sights. i don't actually see the purpose of hip shooting. alot of reflex shooting methods actually allow for a sight picture, however brief.
But if your eye sight is not good and you have had your glasses knocked off your face (as was done to the FBI agent at the Miami shootout) you will not find those sights.

And when the attacker is just a few arms lengths away and about to fire then you must fire as fast as you possibly can. Or when your other arm is occupied with a task and the ranges are short. One handed shooting with speed is when you will have to just use the slide of the weapon as an index.

Yes if possible use your sights, and if you can't see them try to use the same 'stance' as if you could see them, but there are times when you won't be able to do all that and that is when you improvise.

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Old September 1, 2013, 07:19 PM   #20
Quadpod88
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deaf, i admire your zeal...but i wear the equivilent of 2 hubble space telescopes on my face, i've had them fall off and crushed during room clearing in Afghanistan, if i could manage...others can too
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Old September 1, 2013, 07:31 PM   #21
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IMHO: "Point Shooting" ......

It's a step backwards, I believe, because:

Quote:
to be accurate you need practice. Lots and lots of practice.
.... and those resources (both time and ammo) could be better utilized getting better and faster while using the sights.


If you are already insanely fast and precise with the sights, and have nothing better to do with your time and money ..... well then, knock yourself out.
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Old September 3, 2013, 06:55 AM   #22
daddyo
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Thousands of presentations and trigger pulls.

To save money and have more practice time, get a laser bullet. You can draw and fire a flash of laser lite instantly telling you where the bullet would have impacted. This allows for excellent in home silent training. I can hit much smaller items with much greater consistency since becoming a dealer and playing with my inventory LOL.
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Old September 3, 2013, 09:05 AM   #23
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jimbob86, what if the attacker is close enough that raising the gun to eye level increases the chance of his grabbing the gun?
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Old September 3, 2013, 09:12 AM   #24
g.willikers
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As a shooter's technique improves, especially with handguns, the sights become as much a reference as an aiming aid.
For a good shootist, the sights become mostly important for correction.
In other words, they rely more on technique than sights.
The use of sights is more at the subconscious level.
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Old September 3, 2013, 09:53 AM   #25
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Again, what if the attacker is in position to attack the weapon?

Raising it to where sights are within view puts the gun in a weaker position for retention.

I prefer aimed fire or sight referenced fire, but it is not always practical.

Edit: Jelly Bryce advocated training at point fire. He won an estimated nineteen gunfights, so he may have had some idea what he was talking about.
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