The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 29, 2013, 07:02 PM   #1
bonefamily
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2012
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 304
DAO woes

Have any of you just given up on a gun design that just wasn't working for you? Frustration is beginning to set in with me and my DAO semi auto's.

I have two, a newly aquired SCCY CPX-2, and a Kel Tec P-32. I admit to be a novice shooter at best and hold no pride in my shooting and would really like to have better control of my pistols. I have been practicing my darn'est to keep my aim as I pull the the long trigger back and not side to side. I thought I was doing fairly well getting about 6" groups (though still a bit low and left of POA) at 21 ft., until I fired my wife's SA Bersa Thunder 380 for the first time today. With that pistol in SA I was holding 2" groups on aim at the same 21 ft. I was thrilled with my results, but then discouraged that I could not do that with my own. I know the inner self in me is saying to sell off the DAO's and get a DA/SA, but I would much rather learn to shoot the pistols I have now. I like to believe that anything can be learned - perhaps I need to set up more time with a private instructor. The wife and I are scheduled for our CCW class this coming March and I don't think shooting 6" groups would qualify...
bonefamily is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 07:20 PM   #2
jason_iowa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Posts: 686
I have given up any handgun with a manual thumb safety. So kind of the opposite of you I love the DAO stuff. Manual safety and mag disconnection safeties are deal killers for me. I have sold off or put in the back of the safe anything with either of them.
jason_iowa is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 07:31 PM   #3
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 2,460
I'm with you, and I absolutely hate DAO, one of the main reasons I stopped carrying a revolver. I have no problem with DA/SA however.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 08:28 PM   #4
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,932
Once you learn to shoot DAO, you can pretty much pick up anything else, and have no troubles shooting them reasonably well. If you only learn on SA triggers, the reverse isnt normally the case.

I think many dont ever bother to learn, and thats why you hear a lot of complaints.

It does take a little extra effort, and a lot of dry firing helps, and once you get your muscle tone up a little, and keep your focus on the sights, and not the trigger, youll start to see things improve. If you practice regularly, you will see improvement pretty quick. Once you understand things, and see the advantages to shooting DAO, I doubt youll be thumb cocking much, if ever again.
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
AK103K is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 08:35 PM   #5
shootniron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Posts: 1,147
I have no use for DAO semi's, but I carry a 642 most of the time and it is DAO. Generally, the thing that I dislike about the DAO semi is that they tend to be thick guns such as a Sig and I despise a thick handgun.
shootniron is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 08:35 PM   #6
dawg23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 401
Quote:
Have any of you just given up on a gun design that just wasn't working for you? Frustration is beginning to set in with me and my DAO semi auto's.

I have two, a newly aquired SCCY CPX-2, and a Kel Tec P-32.
No offense intended, but it's not fair to indict DAO pistols based on the two you chose. When you buy $300 guns, you get get cheap guns with cheap triggers.

A Glock, M&P, XD or HK (w/LEM) will have triggers remarkably different from the ones you're struggling with. I understand that the firearms I named will be harder to conceal -- but anyone who makes a reasonable effort should have no trouble concealing a reasonably-sized weapon.

If cost is the issue (and I understand this is often the case), you can find a used Glock (police trade-in) for about $400. If you send it to Glock they'll check every component and replace any part that needs upgrading -- at no charge. Then you'll have a dependable weapon with a decent trigger (and for $20 you can change the connector and have an even better trigger).

Just saying.
__________________
.
www.PersonalDefenseTraining.net
dawg23 is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 08:49 PM   #7
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Once you understand things, and see the advantages to shooting DAO, I doubt youll be thumb cocking much, if ever again.
I cant think of a single advantage of DAO except being more snag free in most designs. My first gun was a S&W double action revolver, I shot revolvers extensively for a few years and my EDC for 3 years was a model 60 and 640. I am a pretty good shot with revolvers, I practiced a whole lot, dry fire and live fire, and I could certainly see my groups tighten up with practice. But I shoot DA/SA and striker fired autos a whole lot better and with ease. To make things worse, DA triggers on autos are nothing like a revolvers DA trigger and tend to be not as smooth. Which is why the DAK configurations on Sig pistols makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would anyone give up a crisp single action trigger for DAO, and if they are worried about consistency of the trigger pull from shot to shot why not just go with a striker fired pistol, which has a much lighter and crisp trigger pull.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 09:12 PM   #8
915A
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 426
Having just picked up my first DAO there was definitely a learning curve, over my SR9c's trigger. But I really like it so far and don't have an issue with either trigger as of yet.
__________________
"I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it."
Clint Eastwood
915A is offline  
Old January 29, 2013, 10:51 PM   #9
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,527
I find the DAO on my Kahr to be one of the best triggers I've tried. It actually prevents me from flinching.
chris in va is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 09:01 AM   #10
Rmart30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Posts: 434
My first semi auto was years ago and a S&W 5946. The DAO version of the 5906. I purchased it specifically because it was DAO and I dont want a external safety that has to be clicked off.
I learned to shoot with DA revolvers so to me it wasnt that big of a deal that it was DAO.

Sorta like learning to drive .... ya learn on a stick first and then you can drive anything.

Does your CCW class have a restriction on what firearm you can qualify with?
__________________
Jetguns.com When you want better service from a online gun seller and someplace that actually will talk to you on the phone unlike "Duds" gun shop, try them.

http://www.gunbanobama.com <---MUST READ
Rmart30 is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 10:22 AM   #11
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,932
Quote:
But I shoot DA/SA and striker fired autos a whole lot better and with ease.
From the sense of pure group size, I usually shoot tighter groups with the DA's, than I do the SA's. I can also usually shoot the DA revolvers faster and tighter than I can shoot the autos too. The downside to the revolvers though, is they stop shooting way to quick. Which is why I normally carry a Glock 17.

Quote:
To make things worse, DA triggers on autos are nothing like a revolvers DA trigger and tend to be not as smooth.
I havent really found that to be the case. The only really bad DA auto trigers Ive come across, have been some of the smaller, Eastern European military pistols. Other than that, the rest have all been very shootable. One that actually surpasses most revolvers out of the box, was my SIG P250. Its trigger is very much like a DA revolvers, just lighter and smoother.

Quote:
Sorta like learning to drive .... ya learn on a stick first and then you can drive anything.
Thats pretty much how I look at it.

Its also amazing at the number of people these days, who cant drive a stick.

There seems to be a correlation there with triggers too.
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
AK103K is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 10:37 AM   #12
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 852
The trigger is the most important part on a pistol. A 12lb trigger is much harder to control, than a 4.5lb one, as on my Glock 19 4th gen, carry/IDPA pistol.

The most accurate shooting sport, re pistol, is free pistol. Trigger weight? 1lb?
Single shot, 50m target.

Think of this, you are shooting for score, using sights, 12lb trigger or 4.5lb one?

That was a no brainer, yes.
Brit is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 10:37 AM   #13
bonefamily
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2012
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 304
Well, I can drive a stick as that is what I learned on, so I do have hope that I will master the DAO trigger

But seriously, thanks to everyone for the inspiration. It is good to know that I am not the only one that has had trouble with the DAO and that I can learn it with care and practice.

I'm in Ohio and I don't believe there is a restriction as to what is used to qualify for CCW. I do know that a shooting qualification is required to be passed by the instructor and I don't feel my shooting is acurate enough as of yet. Yes, I can keep my shots on target but I am not usually hitting where I am aiming - I am mostly about 2" low and 3" left (at 21'). Once in while I will hit POA, and this occurs when I relax my strong hand, but then it feels like the pistol wants to leap from it. I am trying to find that in-between. In the beginning I was shooting quite noteably better but I was staging the trigger then - as I was taught by our private instructor. I have since read that it is bad practice to stage the trigger on DAO pistols and have stopped doing so, focusing more on an even steady full trigger pull - but not shooting as accurately.

Does trigger pull weight say from 5 to 9 lbs have a significant difference in shooter's accuracy? The pistol I am wanting to use for CC has a 9 lb (as spec'd by the mfg.) trigger pull. I didn't think this was too heavy for a DAO as it is mainly the safety feature of these pistol's design, no?

Thanks again to all for the help.

Last edited by bonefamily; January 30, 2013 at 10:43 AM.
bonefamily is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 11:26 AM   #14
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,932
Quote:
The trigger is the most important part on a pistol.
I put the sights, or target, depending on how youre shooting, in the most important position, for most "overall" shooting. The rounds go where the sights were, when the gun went off. If youre worrying on the trigger, youre not watching the sights.

If all Im shooting is one type of trigger, with a small caliber round, at paper targets, then perhaps a light SA trigger would be better for one specific use. But on chucks at 100 yards with a 4" .44 mag with hot loads, or reactive use under stress, that same type trigger can be, and for me, is a detriment. I focus on keeping the sights aligned all while steadily and unconsciously increasing the pressure on the trigger until the gun goes off.

I personally think if youre "thinking" about the trigger, your focus is in the wrong place.

I also think that the epiphany arrives, when you realize youre not thinking about the trigger at all when you shoot, just where the sights (or peripheral imprint of the rear of the gun or its feel) were when the gun went off.

There will always be a slight readjustment period (usually about a couple of rounds to a mag or cylinder or so) between gun/trigger types, depending on how much experience and practice you have in with each type, but other than that, there really isnt much of a relearning curve between them. Its when you dont have that experience and practice with the different types that the troubles usually show up.

If youre familiar and comfortable with DAO shooting, anything you come across should not be a problem to shoot. If all you learn on and shoot, as light, SA triggers, the reverse is not usually the case.
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
AK103K is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 11:40 AM   #15
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,114
I shoot Bullseye competition DA with an iron-sighted revolver (except for slow fire). It's great training for how to keep a gun steady. The below target was at 25 yards, one handed DA, rapid fire (5 rounds in 10 seconds, x 2).

Caveats - the trigger pull weight on this gun has been intentionally lightened (but is still a long pull). It's a 6-inch barrel revolver, which helps with recoil and because it has a relatively long sight radius. Also, it's a .22LR - centerfire calibers are going to be a little tougher.

spacecoast is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 12:29 PM   #16
The Great Mahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 3, 2008
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 1,268
Personally, I wish there were more DAO semis. None of the local shops carry much of anything with DAO, even for revolvers. The striker fired are ok, but I'd like a true DA semi for the collection.

I hate DA/SA models, as I like a consistent trigger; I just can't get used to the change after the first shot, and don't see a need to.

As such, I'll stick to my revolvers and striker-fired guns.
The Great Mahoo is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 01:23 PM   #17
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,073
True double actions (as apposed to "safe action" striker actions) are definitely a bear to master. But - like others have said - once you get there you can shoot pretty much anything.
A gun with a slightly lighter trigger would probably be a good investment, but in the mean time pick up some snap caps - one of the few gun accessories that's still easy to find - and do lots and lots of dry fire. Depending on what the top of your gun looks like you can try balancing a penny on top, or come up with other games to break up the monotony of dry fire practice. The upside to a DA is you won't have to reset it between shots.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 01:33 PM   #18
certified106
Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2013
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris in va View Post
I find the DAO on my Kahr to be one of the best triggers I've tried. It actually prevents me from flinching.
I used to hate DAO and then I bought my Kahr........ it makes shooting a DAO enjoyable in fact I now prefer it over some of my other pistols.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
certified106 is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 03:09 PM   #19
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,450
Some DA's (DAO or SA/DA) are really bears, with long, rough trigger pulls. But except for the extremes, DA shooting can be mastered for those with the necessary strength. The "secret" is like any other shooting - keep the sights lined up and squeeze the trigger. The squeeze may be longer, but the principle is the same.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 03:13 PM   #20
m.p.driver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 552
A have a dao S&W 4553 that i have grown to love,i just wish the hammer would stay back after the first shot.
m.p.driver is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 04:57 PM   #21
bonefamily
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2012
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 304
Thanks for all the replies, everyone! I appreciate the help.

I guess my main concern with the DAO is if it ever comes time that I will need to use in self defense situations. I mean, will the repetitive training with the DAO become like muscle memory? I know I'm pulling my shots now so I am hoping with training that it will become second to none and I wont have to force myself. I would not like to be in the situation and be missing my target. I'm sure under severe stress, that alone will be enough to worry about and not the trigger - though I'm sure in such a situation the trigger pull will not even be on my mind, rather than to just focus and pull.

In regards to the pistol in topic, the trigger is long and a bit heavy (that is, I guess - I really don't know if 9 lbs is heavy or not for a DAO S/A), but it is very smooth. The wife's Bersa Thunder 380 in DA for the first shot is very gritty. She was getting to the point of just cocking the hammer back for the first shot after mag reloads and using the slide release as she said she didn't like the first long gritty pull. The SCCY is not at all like that, it is very smooth, IMO.
bonefamily is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:00 PM   #22
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,932
Quote:
I mean, will the repetitive training with the DAO become like muscle memory?
Yes. The more you practice and dry fire, the less youll notice the trigger.

Just concentrate on your sight alignment as you stroke through the trigger and it will get easier as you go, and your rounds will go where you/the gun were looking.

Also try to "call" your shots as they break, this will emphasize your focus on sight alignment and knowing where the round was going when the gun went off.

Dont let the weight bother you. Heavy and clean isnt near a distraction as much as gritty and crunchy, no matter the weight.
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22
AK103K is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:06 PM   #23
Jayster
Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2013
Posts: 74
I too have a Kahr. The PM9. It has a mighty smooth trigger.
Jayster is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:15 PM   #24
Jimboski
Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2013
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 32
I like both actions, really enjoying my Glock 26 action over my Beretta 96d's tho'. Still both great, had/sold a Taurus 617 liked it too, had to sell it during a personal recession tho'. Next revolver I'd like to get a Ruger or S&W in .357mag. Just a dream right now...
Jimboski is offline  
Old January 30, 2013, 06:25 PM   #25
Rmart30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2008
Posts: 434
Reason I asked if there was a stipulation on what you can qualify with, can ya borrow another firearm from a buddy to qualify with and later on pick ya up something you like better trigger wise?

the 5946 was my only full size semi auto for almost 20 years because DAO guns sorta faded away without many models offered and I wasnt going to buy a semi auto with a manual safety.
But then I was introduced to the SA XD/XDM lineup .... felt great in my hand, no safety to flip off and a consistent trigger pull every time. I have well over 10k thru my XDM 9 and its been trouble free.
__________________
Jetguns.com When you want better service from a online gun seller and someplace that actually will talk to you on the phone unlike "Duds" gun shop, try them.

http://www.gunbanobama.com <---MUST READ
Rmart30 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.16314 seconds with 9 queries