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Old February 2, 2013, 07:38 PM   #1
TheDutchman19
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Fire Forming Cases

I have a question for the seasoned reloading veterans. I am fairly new to the precision reload gig, but I am trying to fast pace it to getting bug holes.

I know that factory ammo has not been fire formed. This morning I was fire forming some new cases. This was my second trip to the range to fire form cases for this rifle. There was 15 to 20 mph winds, but I had better than expected results. Next I'll bump back the shoulder 0.002" in the FL Type S die. How much, if any, improvement should I expect with my reloads now that the cases are formed.
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Old February 2, 2013, 10:19 PM   #2
wyobohunter
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It depends on your rifle. Some rifles will enjoy a significant improvement, others not so much. You'll only be able to tell by doing a side by side comparison with all other variables the same.
It makes a measurable difference in most loads I've tested. Other bonuses include fewer steps (less lubrication/cleanup) and less work hardening of your cases. I neck size only for all of my bolt actions. It is worth the price of the extra die IMO. Sorry I can't tell you "your groups will shrink by X amount". Only way to know it to do the comparison.
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Old February 2, 2013, 11:10 PM   #3
4runnerman
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First off- Don't get all up about better groups. In reality it's maybe 50/50 on better or worse groups. Many tests have been done on this subject and it's 6 of one half dozen of the other on better accuracy with fired formed. If it works for you ,go with it. Lot's of bench shooters will FLS everytime. It falls into the same category as bedding a action, Bedding an action can destroy accuracy also.

As stated,DO up a few rounds and see what your rifle likes. You might find yourself back a FLS,
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Old February 3, 2013, 01:04 AM   #4
603Country
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If you'll forgive me for offering more info that you asked for...Next week I'll start on my little experiment on group size versus case resizing methods and dies. I've done some earlier testing with FL sized, neck sized, and partial resized with fully prepped cases and with mixed and unprepped cases. The short answer is that the group size did vary with method and with prepped versus unprepped cases, but except for an occasional flyer with the unprepped cases, they ALL shot pretty well. One thing for sure is that if you partial resize or neck size, if the case shoulder is out far enough that you have to bear down to close the bolt, it's time to FL size them. It seemed apparent that accuracy was impacted if the case was difficult to chamber.

Going on memory, the best accuracy in that test came from FL sized cases and neck sized cases. The next test will include some of the dies that folks talk about a lot - the Lee Collet Neck Die and the Redding type S FL bushing die. I can't wait to see how this turns out.
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:17 AM   #5
TheDutchman19
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603country

The more info the better. Staying objective is the only way to continue to improve. I would love to hear what you learn. If you start another thread about your results, please reply to this thread and let me know where to find it. Good luck.

I have started using the Redding Type S - FL dies. I like that you can full length size while controlling neck tension.
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Old February 3, 2013, 12:09 PM   #6
Bart B.
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Dutchman, don't get hung up on having to fire form cases then reload them for bug hole accuracy. Federal's mass produced .308 match ammo with new unprepped case, metered powder charges, bullet runout up to 4 thousandths and fired in SAAMI spec or larger MIL SPEC chambers shot 1/4" at 100, well under 2 inches at 300 and under 4 inches at 600 yards from M1 and M14 service match grade rifles. The Palma teams around the world shooting arsenal or other mass produced ammo of the same ilk shoot that stuff just as accurate.

If any one of the several match-winning record-setting loads in new cases doesn't shoot very accurate, it's not the ammo's fault as long as it was loaded with the right tools, components and techniques.
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Old February 3, 2013, 01:17 PM   #7
wyobohunter
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Like I said, it may or may not help your accuracy. Either way it is worth doing.
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Old February 3, 2013, 01:20 PM   #8
603Country
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There was a time when I might have silently disagreed with some of what BartB said, but that time is past. Last year I bought some new Nosler brass in 260 Remington and lightly turned the necks and loaded em up with my favorite load. They shot fantastic. Best I've done with the rifle. So...I was thinking...now that I have my fireformed cases, they'll shoot even better, won't they. Nope! I neck sized them with Redding's non-bushing die and I shot worse groups. So I loaded more and shot more, but my resized brass did not and would not shoot as well as the new brass did. There's a lesson there somewhere, and I think it has to do with my knocking the necks out of proper alignment by use of that neck die - which is what BartB has said again and again. Soooo, just maybe he knows a little about all this reloading.

That's what has caused me to want to test resizing dies of various makes and types. I have a sneaking suspicion that when the cloud of burnt gunpowder blows away from my range next week, I'll find that BartB's suggestion on the Redding bushing dies is correct. But...I bought the Lee Collet die too. So we'll see how that measures up also. Then I'll buy the 'winning' dies for all my rifles, if there is a clear winner. It'll either cost me a lot (Redding) or a little (Lee). For comparison purposes I'll be using: Hornady FL die, Redding NK die (non-bushing type), Lee Collet die, Redding FL bushing die.

And I'll post results and pictures (if I can figure out how to put the pics on the forum). Folks can do what they wish with the results (agree, disagree, ignore, etc.), but I'm doing this for me cause I want to know.

Last edited by 603Country; February 3, 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:36 PM   #9
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And I'll post results and pictures (if I can figure out how to put the pics on the forum). Folks can do what they wish with the results (agree, disagree, ignore, etc.), but I'm doing this for me cause I want to know

603 -Dead on. This is what I do also. My results I post here are reality in my rifle. As to if they break the norm or not. AT the end of the day. I have nothing to prove to anyone other than myself
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Old February 3, 2013, 02:39 PM   #10
wyobohunter
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603Country mentions neck turning as well. Reminds me of a neck turning thread. Some people claim it is an absolute waste of time unless you have a tight match chamber.
Others will tell you it's a must do.

You shouldn't trust anyone who tries to give you a definitive answer on what will and will not give positive results. They/you can't know without trying.
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Old February 3, 2013, 06:10 PM   #11
F. Guffey
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Fire Forming Cases

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a question for the seasoned reloading veterans. I am fairly new to the precision reload gig, but I am trying to fast pace it to getting bug holes.

The Dutchman 19, I am the only person reading this that sees an oxymoron, as in “seasoned reloading veterans” and fire former, a fire former chambers a round, then pulls the trigger, I claim they eject a once fired case, they claim they obtained ‘FIRE FORMING STATUS’.

“I am trying to fast pace it to getting bug holes” I have attained the bug hole status, I purchased a new rifle, I purchased new ammo, I did made adjustments and I made replacements to things like scope mounts, rings and scope.. With factory, new ammo the rifle shot one hole groups, another bug hole rifle and I moved up to the status, $150.00, surplus Remington 03 before A3, same ammo that was purchases when the owner of the rifle purchased the rifle from Sears in the early 60s. He was the nervous sort. Dealers at the gun show were scared, seems the stamp on the barrel read ‘Santa Fe, they had no objection to me making the purchase, problem, I had to go to the bank. I choose the drive through, once I lined up on the teller window, he jumped from the pick up and left me. Everything worked out, seems he had issues with pulling up to a drive window at a bank with 3 rifles and two shotguns, he pulled himself together once I explained we were in the ATM lane.

I am putting two rifles together, bench type, same thing, one hole groups, I haven’t formed the cases yet, I have not decided on purchasing a forming die or if I will modify one I have already paid for, I already know the necks in the chambers are are too large in diameter according to the ‘seasoned (Internet) reloading veterans’, but even the large necks in the chamber can not drive me to the curb. If I have not already said it, the rifle has more to do with accuracy than the ammo, then there is practice, practice and more practice.

then there was ‘the UGLY RIFLE, something like a YouTbue being maid, you know the ones like ‘Americas Funniest Videos’ with giggling in the back ground when everyone knows something is going to go wrong except the victim. reloading forums got wind of the auction, everyone was trying to make themselves look good at the builders expense, except me, I could not believe someone could build something that ugly without knowing what they were doing, I did ask the forums to back off/hold it down until the auction was over, I thought the attention would drive the price up, other forum members were too proud to either bid and or admit they did bid, I paid $120.00 for the rifle, sure enough, I could not improve the accuracy, so I applied the ‘Leaver policy’ I lefter the way I founder. The ugly was about the accuracy, what could not be understood could be seen. I purchased the rifle for the sum of the parts if the rifle was not accurate. I have more money in the scope, mount and rings than I have in the rifle.

I delivered a 7mm57/Belgium receiver with a new box of Remington ammo, no forming, no fire forming, just point and shoot. The new proud owners sighted the rifle in with 5 two shot groups, each of the 5 groups had both holes touching.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; February 4, 2013 at 09:27 AM. Reason: the usual, add a y, change an o to an i and remove an o
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Old February 3, 2013, 07:16 PM   #12
m&p45acp10+1
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All of the testing I have done with several rifles showed me that the seating die was a bigger factor than the sizing die.
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