9mm vs .40 S&W for CCW - Page 4

ScotchMan · February 2, 2013, 12:25 PM

OP, you really need to take a class or read a book on terminal ballistics. Then draw your own conclusions. I will summarize what I learned:

1) All handguns suck at stopping determined aggressors.
2) All handguns SUCK at stopping determined aggressors.
3) If you're going to get around handguns sucking, you MUST hit the central nervous system (CNS) or brain. Alternatively you can hope for the criminal to bleed out, which can take many minutes or hours. If you hit a major artery like the aorta, this can be reduced to seconds.
4) Everything you want to hit is basically in the center chest area, and if you miss the CNS, there's lots of good blood vessels there.
5) Caliber doesn't matter. You want to penetrate deeply enough to reach organs, which is why everyone doesn't use a .17. .380 from directly facing someone is exactly as effective as .45ACP at immediately stopping someone. Either you hit what you need to hit, or you don't.

To distill it down even further:

1) Handguns suck.
2) Shot placement is literally all that matters assuming your bullet penetrates deeply enough to hit organs.

Why do police carry .40? Marketing, and a lack of knowledge. You'd be amazed how little research into terminal ballistics is done by police and militaries making decisions.

TheGoldenState · February 2, 2013, 12:45 PM

Either will do.

Whichever you shoot best.

9mm is plenty enough. .40 is as well.

LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.

militant · February 2, 2013, 12:55 PM

I encourage everyone to watch the FBI shoot out that occurs in floridia awhile ago. It may shine some light on the effectiveness of handguns against attackers if they really won't stop until dead. The firearms used were .357, 9mm, 13 gauge and a mini 14.

Eppie · February 2, 2013, 01:20 PM

The strategy is pretty to to simple practice. I have a two step practice method.
At 15 yards:

1. First shot to center of mass.
2. Head shot.

Practice slowly at first and when you feel bored or you got it wired increase speed. It's not rocket since. Use whatever caliber you like. I practice with 9mm, .40 and .45 after all variety is the spice of life.

Mystro · February 2, 2013, 01:34 PM

This guy was shot 2 times with I believe 9mm ball ammo. That is what is used as a typical police round in these countries. It eventually kills him but look at the time it took. Had he had a gun, the gun fight would have continued.

It is important to know people just don't fall over from a gun shot.

Word of caution.......A man dies in this new video. View with caution .
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=r...&v=vB5uu7QPvoY

RBid · February 2, 2013, 01:36 PM

ScotchMan nailed it.

Militant,
The Miami shoot out story is a good point of reference in that it demonstrates the relative shortcomings of handguns. For that purpose, I like your suggestion. The downside is that the Miami story has given birth to a lot of bad assumptions. Ammunition then simply doesn't compare to what we have now, in terms of penetration or expansion. People reviewing the Miami shoot out should keep it in mind that that event revolutionized the ammunition game, and appreciate how far .38spl, 9mm, etc have come as a direct result of that fiasco.

militant · February 2, 2013, 01:41 PM

I conceal carry a .357 mag 6 inch barrel in the winter with a heavy coat on and in the summer I carry a .357 snub. I had a 9 then a .40. I can shoot revolvers much more accurate so that's what I carry. I personlly would hope to have a 12 gauge with 00 buck if my life was on the line.

militant · February 2, 2013, 01:45 PM

Might I also add that in that firefight with the FBI, agents were hit with the .223 in the neck and the perp was hot with 12 gauge in the face. The .223 did not kill the agent but did paralyze him and the 12 gauge some how did not stop the perp.

Constantine · February 2, 2013, 02:07 PM

Thank you ScotchMan. I pretty much tried to sum it up to the exact same thing for him.

Sent from my phone...expect typos.

Nanuk · February 2, 2013, 02:12 PM

1. Only hits count.
2. The hit must be sufficient to change the BG's channel.

Batcat6 · February 2, 2013, 02:26 PM

I carry 9mm in my pocket. That's what fits. Besides, my ammo gives me 1400 fps for 115 gr Gold Dot bullet. That's about what .357 Sig does, nearly a .357 mag. What need do I have with .40 or .45? I ran across this stuff in Grants Pass, OR about 20 years ago, and it doesn't exist anymore. Glad I loaded up when I did. Even today's best loads don't match it. I used to carry it in my old .32 Keltec P32 until I experienced "rimlock". That ended the .32. Now I get to carry a 9mm Keltec PF9 with my fab ammo.

militant · February 2, 2013, 03:18 PM

You have a 9mm round achieving 1400 fps? Chrono pics please.

manta49 · February 2, 2013, 03:21 PM

Quote:

This guy was shot 2 times with I believe 9mm ball ammo. That is what is used as a typical police round in these countries. It eventually kills him but look at the time it took. Had he had a gun, the gun fight would have continued.

The same would probably apply to most handgun rounds.

propforce · February 2, 2013, 04:17 PM

Scotchman said caliber doesn't matter, it is penetration that counts. Many posters agreed with him.

Well, isn't this where .40 S&W has an advantage over the 9mm?

The .40 hits harder with heavier bullet and penetrates deeper.

Constantine · February 2, 2013, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propforce

Scotchman said caliber doesn't matter, it is penetration that counts. Many posters agreed with him.

Well, isn't this where .40 S&W has an advantage over the 9mm?

The .40 hits harder with heavier bullet and penetrates deeper.

Not true. No. And no. And no.

They're about a equal. Different loads do different things. One may surpass the other which may surpass the other. There isn't a "one penetrates more than the other" between .40S&W and 9mm. You're wrong.

Sent from my phone...expect typos.

propforce · February 2, 2013, 05:41 PM

The 40 can go up to 180 gr bullet whereas the 9 peters out at 147. Assuming the same bullet design, FMJ vs JHP, wouldn't the bigger, heavier bullet hit harder? If not, why not?

Mystro · February 2, 2013, 06:00 PM

Apparently the laws of physics don't apply to the 40 vs 9 debate.

. Oh well, train with what you feel comfortable with.

Batcat6 · February 2, 2013, 06:39 PM

Here is photo of ammo boxes for my 9mm and .40. This stuff was made for cops in south Oregon. The .32 I had was 60 gr Gold Dot at 1250 fps.
ATTACH]86683[/ATTACH]

propforce · February 2, 2013, 06:57 PM

It is interesting that, in the Miami shoot out, it was the lowly .38 spcl +P that ended the fight. Agent Mireles shot 6 rounds out of his S&W 686, the first round missed, but the second round shattered driver side windshield, 2 rounds hit Matrix in the face, the bullets travel downward and severed his spinal cord and the 6th round hit Platt right on the chest close up, killing him instantly and ended the shoot out.

I don't know what weight bullet in his .38 spcl +P but considering they are the FBI. It would not be unreasonable to assume the 158gr +P LSWCHP.

TheDoubleDeuce · February 2, 2013, 07:47 PM

In case 100+ posts on this topic aren't enough, here are even more topics from the forum specifically discussing 9mm vs .40 for CCW:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324542
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235041
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462024
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460796

I would have thought these would come up in a search to spare us another caliber war...

CurlyQ.Howard · February 2, 2013, 09:02 PM

Barcat6, Have you checked out Underwood ammo yet - both 9mm and .40 cal?Youtube videos show that Underwood's figures are not exaggerated and in fact perhaps understate figures. http://www.underwoodammo.com/

mbrittb00 · February 2, 2013, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotchMan

OP, you really need to take a class or read a book on terminal ballistics. Then draw your own conclusions. I will summarize what I learned:

1) All handguns suck at stopping determined aggressors.
2) All handguns SUCK at stopping determined aggressors.
3) If you're going to get around handguns sucking, you MUST hit the central nervous system (CNS) or brain. Alternatively you can hope for the criminal to bleed out, which can take many minutes or hours. If you hit a major artery like the aorta, this can be reduced to seconds.
4) Everything you want to hit is basically in the center chest area, and if you miss the CNS, there's lots of good blood vessels there.
5) Caliber doesn't matter. You want to penetrate deeply enough to reach organs, which is why everyone doesn't use a .17. .380 from directly facing someone is exactly as effective as .45ACP at immediately stopping someone. Either you hit what you need to hit, or you don't.

To distill it down even further:

1) Handguns suck.
2) Shot placement is literally all that matters assuming your bullet penetrates deeply enough to hit organs.

Why do police carry .40? Marketing, and a lack of knowledge. You'd be amazed how little research into terminal ballistics is done by police and militaries making decisions.

So, basically caliber does matter, but just not once you pass into the 9mm range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoubleDeuce

In case 100+ posts on this topic aren't enough, here are even more topics from the forum specifically discussing 9mm vs .40 for CCW:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324542
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235041
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462024
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460796

I would have thought these would come up in a search to spare us another caliber war...

I did apologize previously for not doing a through enough search the first time. Being new to the whole gun community I had no idea that this was such a hotly debated issue.

Also, if they were so easy to find, maybe next time with your first post, you might want to trying being nice and include the easy to find links rather than being a smart alec.

Finally, if you don't want to be involved in another "caliber war", then don't. No one has forced you to post 4 times in this thread.

Batcat6 · February 2, 2013, 09:09 PM

To CurlyQ.Howard: I notice the 115 gr 9mm are +P+ at 1400 fps. My ammo is not +P+, or +P. Mine is fit for ALL 9mm pistols at normal SAAMI pressures.

TheDoubleDeuce · February 2, 2013, 10:03 PM

Quote:

If they were so easy to find, maybe next time with your first post, you might want to trying being nice and include the easy to find links rather than being a smart alec.

Finally, if you don't want to be involved in another "caliber war", then don't. No one has forced you to post 4 times in this thread.

My first post was from a phone, so I wasn't go to do your job for you on a 4" screen. I thought my very clear comment early in the thread might prompt you to search for yourself, and I pretty much summed up the message that you were going to get from everyone anyway.

My second post elaborated further on what I said in my first post, since somehow the thread was still going.

My third post was a joke.

In my fourth post, I decided to finally post some links for you, even though I shouldn't have to.

But hey, you're right - forums are for discussion. I keep posting in this discussion. So I guess, as many times as this topic has been brought up before, we will still talk about it. No offense intended.

mbrittb00 · February 2, 2013, 11:36 PM

I'll be honest, I mostly ignored your first post because of the tone. I understand that you were on your phone, but something more helpful like:

"I see that you are knew here, this is a topic that has been debated for years. I suggest doing a search for '9mm vs 40'. That should give you more info than you want.

would have gotten your point across (in fewer words) without sounding like a jerk, and probably would have gotten me to do that search earlier

Please understand that I am very new to this forum (you can tell by my number of posts) and handguns in general. I honestly had no clue that this was such a hotly debated issue, I didn't do a very deep search (apparently I did a fairly pathetic job) before starting this thread. I'll admit that your 2nd and 4th posts were VERY helpful, thank you for that. Your 3rd was obviously a joke (al be it one that helped continued this thread that you wish didn't even exist). I'll probably look at the most recent of the ones you posted (about 2 years old), but I think I've decided to stick with the 9mm for now.

Also, I do now see that there are two very entrenched camps on this topic, and to be honest it may not be possible to sway either side either way.

Advantages of 9mm
1) Less Recoil
2) More shots (given the same weapon frame)
3) Cheaper practice ammo

Advantages of .40
1) More oomph

The question (and the one that will probably remain forever is "Is the extra oomph of the .40 enough to overcome the negative of fewer shots and more recoil?"

February 2, 2013, 12:25 PM	#76
ScotchMan Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Posts: 1,212	OP, you really need to take a class or read a book on terminal ballistics. Then draw your own conclusions. I will summarize what I learned: 1) All handguns suck at stopping determined aggressors. 2) All handguns SUCK at stopping determined aggressors. 3) If you're going to get around handguns sucking, you MUST hit the central nervous system (CNS) or brain. Alternatively you can hope for the criminal to bleed out, which can take many minutes or hours. If you hit a major artery like the aorta, this can be reduced to seconds. 4) Everything you want to hit is basically in the center chest area, and if you miss the CNS, there's lots of good blood vessels there. 5) Caliber doesn't matter. You want to penetrate deeply enough to reach organs, which is why everyone doesn't use a .17. .380 from directly facing someone is exactly as effective as .45ACP at immediately stopping someone. Either you hit what you need to hit, or you don't. To distill it down even further: 1) Handguns suck. 2) Shot placement is literally all that matters assuming your bullet penetrates deeply enough to hit organs. Why do police carry .40? Marketing, and a lack of knowledge. You'd be amazed how little research into terminal ballistics is done by police and militaries making decisions. __________________ 1. Mindset 2. Tactics 3. Skill 4. Equipment

February 2, 2013, 12:45 PM	#77
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,186	Either will do. Whichever you shoot best. 9mm is plenty enough. .40 is as well. LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

February 2, 2013, 12:55 PM	#78
militant Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 301	I encourage everyone to watch the FBI shoot out that occurs in floridia awhile ago. It may shine some light on the effectiveness of handguns against attackers if they really won't stop until dead. The firearms used were .357, 9mm, 13 gauge and a mini 14. __________________ A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

February 2, 2013, 01:20 PM	#79
Eppie Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 521	The strategy is pretty to to simple practice. I have a two step practice method. At 15 yards: 1. First shot to center of mass. 2. Head shot. Practice slowly at first and when you feel bored or you got it wired increase speed. It's not rocket since. Use whatever caliber you like. I practice with 9mm, .40 and .45 after all variety is the spice of life. __________________ Experience is a very bad teacher because it first gives you the test and then teaches you the lesson.

February 2, 2013, 01:34 PM	#80
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 460	This guy was shot 2 times with I believe 9mm ball ammo. That is what is used as a typical police round in these countries. It eventually kills him but look at the time it took. Had he had a gun, the gun fight would have continued. It is important to know people just don't fall over from a gun shot. Word of caution.......A man dies in this new video. View with caution . http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=r...&v=vB5uu7QPvoY __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"

February 2, 2013, 01:36 PM	#81
RBid Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Posts: 581	ScotchMan nailed it. Militant, The Miami shoot out story is a good point of reference in that it demonstrates the relative shortcomings of handguns. For that purpose, I like your suggestion. The downside is that the Miami story has given birth to a lot of bad assumptions. Ammunition then simply doesn't compare to what we have now, in terms of penetration or expansion. People reviewing the Miami shoot out should keep it in mind that that event revolutionized the ammunition game, and appreciate how far .38spl, 9mm, etc have come as a direct result of that fiasco. __________________ Currently Own: Ruger SR9c, Glock 23 (Gen 3), Glock 19 (Gen 4) my blog: www.conditionryan.blogspot.com

February 2, 2013, 01:41 PM	#82
militant Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 301	I conceal carry a .357 mag 6 inch barrel in the winter with a heavy coat on and in the summer I carry a .357 snub. I had a 9 then a .40. I can shoot revolvers much more accurate so that's what I carry. I personlly would hope to have a 12 gauge with 00 buck if my life was on the line. __________________ A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

February 2, 2013, 01:45 PM	#83
militant Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 301	Might I also add that in that firefight with the FBI, agents were hit with the .223 in the neck and the perp was hot with 12 gauge in the face. The .223 did not kill the agent but did paralyze him and the 12 gauge some how did not stop the perp. __________________ A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

February 2, 2013, 02:07 PM	#84
Constantine Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2010 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 4,039	Thank you ScotchMan. I pretty much tried to sum it up to the exact same thing for him. Sent from my phone...expect typos.

February 2, 2013, 02:12 PM	#85
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 1,430	1. Only hits count. 2. The hit must be sufficient to change the BG's channel. __________________ My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

February 2, 2013, 02:26 PM	#86
Batcat6 Junior Member Join Date: February 1, 2013 Posts: 3	9mm or .40 I carry 9mm in my pocket. That's what fits. Besides, my ammo gives me 1400 fps for 115 gr Gold Dot bullet. That's about what .357 Sig does, nearly a .357 mag. What need do I have with .40 or .45? I ran across this stuff in Grants Pass, OR about 20 years ago, and it doesn't exist anymore. Glad I loaded up when I did. Even today's best loads don't match it. I used to carry it in my old .32 Keltec P32 until I experienced "rimlock". That ended the .32. Now I get to carry a 9mm Keltec PF9 with my fab ammo.

February 2, 2013, 03:18 PM	#87
militant Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2012 Location: USA Posts: 301	You have a 9mm round achieving 1400 fps? Chrono pics please. __________________ A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

February 2, 2013, 04:17 PM	#89
propforce Member Join Date: October 9, 2011 Posts: 20	Scotchman said caliber doesn't matter, it is penetration that counts. Many posters agreed with him. Well, isn't this where .40 S&W has an advantage over the 9mm? The .40 hits harder with heavier bullet and penetrates deeper.

February 2, 2013, 05:41 PM	#91
propforce Member Join Date: October 9, 2011 Posts: 20	The 40 can go up to 180 gr bullet whereas the 9 peters out at 147. Assuming the same bullet design, FMJ vs JHP, wouldn't the bigger, heavier bullet hit harder? If not, why not?

February 2, 2013, 06:00 PM	#92
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 460	Apparently the laws of physics don't apply to the 40 vs 9 debate.. Oh well, train with what you feel comfortable with. __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"

February 2, 2013, 06:57 PM	#94
propforce Member Join Date: October 9, 2011 Posts: 20	It is interesting that, in the Miami shoot out, it was the lowly .38 spcl +P that ended the fight. Agent Mireles shot 6 rounds out of his S&W 686, the first round missed, but the second round shattered driver side windshield, 2 rounds hit Matrix in the face, the bullets travel downward and severed his spinal cord and the 6th round hit Platt right on the chest close up, killing him instantly and ended the shoot out. I don't know what weight bullet in his .38 spcl +P but considering they are the FBI. It would not be unreasonable to assume the 158gr +P LSWCHP.

February 2, 2013, 07:47 PM	#95
TheDoubleDeuce Member Join Date: January 8, 2013 Posts: 88	In case 100+ posts on this topic aren't enough, here are even more topics from the forum specifically discussing 9mm vs .40 for CCW: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324542 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235041 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462024 http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460796 I would have thought these would come up in a search to spare us another caliber war...

February 2, 2013, 09:02 PM	#96
CurlyQ.Howard Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2012 Posts: 228	Barcat6, Have you checked out Underwood ammo yet - both 9mm and .40 cal?Youtube videos show that Underwood's figures are not exaggerated and in fact perhaps understate figures. http://www.underwoodammo.com/

February 2, 2013, 09:09 PM	#98
Batcat6 Junior Member Join Date: February 1, 2013 Posts: 3	To CurlyQ.Howard: I notice the 115 gr 9mm are +P+ at 1400 fps. My ammo is not +P+, or +P. Mine is fit for ALL 9mm pistols at normal SAAMI pressures.

February 2, 2013, 11:36 PM	#100
mbrittb00 Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 32	I'll be honest, I mostly ignored your first post because of the tone. I understand that you were on your phone, but something more helpful like: "I see that you are knew here, this is a topic that has been debated for years. I suggest doing a search for '9mm vs 40'. That should give you more info than you want. would have gotten your point across (in fewer words) without sounding like a jerk, and probably would have gotten me to do that search earlier Please understand that I am very new to this forum (you can tell by my number of posts) and handguns in general. I honestly had no clue that this was such a hotly debated issue, I didn't do a very deep search (apparently I did a fairly pathetic job) before starting this thread. I'll admit that your 2nd and 4th posts were VERY helpful, thank you for that. Your 3rd was obviously a joke (al be it one that helped continued this thread that you wish didn't even exist). I'll probably look at the most recent of the ones you posted (about 2 years old), but I think I've decided to stick with the 9mm for now. Also, I do now see that there are two very entrenched camps on this topic, and to be honest it may not be possible to sway either side either way. Advantages of 9mm 1) Less Recoil 2) More shots (given the same weapon frame) 3) Cheaper practice ammo Advantages of .40 1) More oomph The question (and the one that will probably remain forever is "Is the extra oomph of the .40 enough to overcome the negative of fewer shots and more recoil?"