The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 6, 2013, 11:12 PM   #26
KO3422
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2011
Posts: 124
I learned plenty enough in my college anatomy classes years and years ago to know that I don't want to get hit in the chest. There's quite the number of organs between the chin and COM that will do some damage if damaged.
KO3422 is offline  
Old February 7, 2013, 12:26 AM   #27
Poindexter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2009
Location: Interior Alaska
Posts: 150
RN, 17 years, some OR time, some radiology time, tutored human anatomy.

I am shooting for the ribcage and carrying enough gun (.45Colt, 255gr at ~950fps) to shoot through an arm into the chest if I need to.

I agree that liver wounds bleed a lot, but they bleed -relatively- slowly because the only place for the blood to go is out the entrance and possible exit wounds. Even a single lung shot will collapse that lung and provide space for the blood to flow into, faster bleed, faster incapacitation. On a head on shot a bullet that misses the heart, great vessels and spine will likely get one lung if it hits the BG at all.

When I visualize a bladed target I am visualizing center of ribcage. If I miss the spine, and the aorta and the vena cava and the heart I am still going to get a second lung at any likely engagement distance.

Really good question though. I should practice some with an IDPA target twisted to an angle sometimes.

Thinking about it I have avoided practicing on oblique targets because shooting someone in the back hardly seems like self defense, but I need to think about this some. I pray I never have to do it, but worse case (mebbe) I shoot at a bladed assailant and miss the ribcage. Entry wound on one side of the back, bullet tunnels under the skin, smacks a dorsal process on a thoracic vertebra hard enough to stun the assailant long enough to end the fight, then the BG wakes up paralyzed from wherever down and I get to go to court.

Clearly not shot "in the back" but from the side. Morally defensible, but I got to work on my speed getting out the second half of a controlled pair to the ribcage.
Poindexter is offline  
Old February 7, 2013, 04:01 AM   #28
Rainbow Demon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2012
Posts: 397
A shot to the chest that goes high and impacts in the throat area is pretty devastating.
Theres not as much flesh between adams apple and spine as anywhere else and no large bones in the way.
A hit on the inside surface of the spine where it connects up with the skull is more than likely going to shut down all body movement, a sufficiently hard hit will cause internal decapitation as surely as a automobile wreck.

A Vietnam era sniper once told me that neck shots were better than head shots, partly due to possible deflection from a helmet I suppose, but mainly because he had once hit a NVA square in the head and blown most of the man's brain out and the body continued walking in a circle firing the AK till it just fell over.
A Medic told him that the last message from the brain to the spinal cord would continue to motivate the body. It was best to break the connection between brain and body. Then the target will simply drop and never again move even if the subject lives for minutes or hours.

I have seen an accident victim with half her head gone moving about on a stretcher and gabbing up a storm as if dancing at a party. That may be the thoughts going through what was left of her brain.

Several people in my home town have survived bullets in the brain. One suicide attempt where a man held a .22 rifle muzzle between his eyes and pressed the trigger with his toe resulted in the bullet simply sliding between the halves of the brain and flattening on the inside of his skull.
Another was shot in the back of the head by a woman when he pulled a gun on her husband. He had started to turn his head when the gun went off. A .38 Special bullet slid under his brain and came out under one eye. He was a bit messed up but suffered no permanent harm other than requiring surgery to repair facial muscles and nerves.

The heart is a pretty tough muscle. The major cause of death from a wound to the heart is leakage of blood into the cardial sheath around the heart, which upsets the balance and makes each heart beat less productive till not enough blood is pumped to sustain life.
Is the sheath is torn a simple penetration of the heart muscle is survivable.
A local man (a door gunner around 69-71) took two 7.62 bullets to the heart and survived, both bullets being found inside one heart chamber. That was at long range and I expect body armor slowed the bullets down.

A bullet through the pulmarnary aorta will kill far more certainly than a bullet to the heart.
The renal aorta is another quick kill, with unconsiousness coming even more quickly. Blood pressure drops near instantly.
Rainbow Demon is offline  
Old February 7, 2013, 09:48 AM   #29
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,387
Quote:
Thinking about it I have avoided practicing on oblique targets because shooting someone in the back hardly seems like self defense, but I need to think about this some.
Shooting somebody in the back is a lot like shooting in the front in terms of the organs underneath, only if you shoot midline, you are more likely to hit the spine than from the front. Plus, you have the shoulder blades up high.

As for not being defense, that all depends on the situation. If a gunman is facing away from you and pointing a gun at your wife and you think he is about to shoot her, do you not think it would be defensive to shoot him in the back? If an intruder in your home is moving away from you toward your children's bedroom with a gun/knife in hand, do you not feel the need to stop him immediately before he does harm to your children?

Defense is situational.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old February 7, 2013, 10:22 AM   #30
Poindexter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2009
Location: Interior Alaska
Posts: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by double nought spy
As for not being defense, that all depends on the situation. If a gunman is facing away from you and pointing a gun at your wife and you think he is about to shoot her, do you not think it would be defensive to shoot him in the back? If an intruder in your home is moving away from you toward your children's bedroom with a gun/knife in hand, do you not feel the need to stop him immediately before he does harm to your children?

Defense is situational.
Point taken.
Poindexter is offline  
Old February 7, 2013, 08:50 PM   #31
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
http://footage.shutterstock.com/clip...-rotation.html
The above link will take you to a rotating representation of a human with the thoracic organs visible.

It represents a fair depiction of internal human anatomy. But one thing I learned, when I took Gross Anatomy and looked at about 10 cadavers; is that there is some variation in human anatomy from person to person.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old February 8, 2013, 12:10 AM   #32
jason_iowa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2011
Posts: 686
Well enough to hit any major organ. The spleen shot is overrated however. We shoot center mass because its loaded with nerves, vessels and organs. It makes it a high probability shot. If you take long enough to aim to hit the heart you are not going to survive. Lead on COM preferably with something that will penetrate through and through from any angle is your best bet.

That's why the shot placement people always crack me up. You don't place shots in combat you train and train and when combat happens you fire. If you cant draw and fire and hit COM with no sights under crappy conditions you need to train more.
jason_iowa is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 04:19 PM   #33
m&p45acp10+1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 3,307
I know anaotomay pretty darn well. Had to take it when I was in paramedic school. There are sometimes when a person is shot that will defy the best of logic. There are some caes when you just do not know how in the world a person survived.
__________________
No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; February 10, 2013 at 04:25 PM. Reason: vulgarity
m&p45acp10+1 is offline  
Old February 10, 2013, 04:51 PM   #34
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,387
Quote:
If you cant draw and fire and hit COM with no sights under crappy conditions you need to train more.
At 1 yard, 3, 5, 15, 25, or 50?

We used to run drills with the sights taped up. I could still pass the Texas CHL with no problem, but that was becasuse most of the points were scored by 7 yards.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08190 seconds with 7 queries