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Old January 31, 2013, 09:24 PM   #1
Bob Wright
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.30 Carbine S&W

The thread about 9mm revovlers reminded me of the WW II experiment with the .30 Carbine round. Seems the Army was considering a .30 Carbine revovler to supplement the M1 Carbine. (Wasn't the .30 Carbine designed to replace the pistol as a sidearm?)

So far as I know, Smith & Wesson built one specimen in .30 Carbine, sort of a reworked M1917 revovler. The gun used half moon clips a la the .45 caliber version.

From what I gathered, the blast and flash was just too much for the average soldier of the time, so the project got no farther. But, interesting anyway.

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Old January 31, 2013, 09:31 PM   #2
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Bob the round was not replace the pistol. It was to give the soldier something a bit more reach than their side arm.

Taurus makes a DA revolver in .30 Carbine. Ruger makes a single action Black Hawk in it. The Black Hawk is real hoot to see it fire. Huge muzzle blast, with a long bright flame. Big boom, a lot of flash, and minimum recoil.
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Old January 31, 2013, 09:35 PM   #3
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There was a delayed blowback autoloader pistol built in .30 Carbine, it was never adopted but seems to have worked okay.

The Carbine was meant for troops who would carry too much other stuff to carry a full size rifle as well. MG crews and Mortar crews etc, who'd otherwise have carried a handgun.
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Old January 31, 2013, 09:48 PM   #4
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The Kimball .30 carbine auto pistol did not work ok.
Delayed blowback was just not enough for the round. I recall accounts of cracked frames with little use.

I think there was an Automag .30.
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:39 PM   #5
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It would be cool to see a S&W DA revolver in .30 carbine that used moon clips but I imagine in reality it probably won't be very practical. The round probably doesn't develop enough velocity in a short revolver barrel to be all that effective.
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Old January 31, 2013, 11:20 PM   #6
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In many cases, the M1 Carbine was very much to be a direct replacement for the pistol.

Many individuals who, lacking the carbine would have been issued a handgun, were not. They were issued the carbine instead -- troops such as truck drivers, couriers, supply personnel, etc.

Supposedly S&W produced several N frames chambered in .30 carbine.

Not only was blast horrendous, the guns apparently showed extremely accelerated wear.
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Old February 1, 2013, 12:32 AM   #7
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Here's a tip: Never, ever shoot a .30 carbine pistol inside a car!
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Old February 1, 2013, 11:28 AM   #8
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AMT Longslide was built in a .30 carbine, no ideal of quality or quanity though
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
AMT Longslide was built in a .30 carbine
It was called the Automag III. It was available in 30 carbine and 9mm Winchester magnum.
I had one in 30 carbine. It functioned perfect with ball ammo. Did not like softpoints. Was LOUD but pretty accurate.

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Old February 1, 2013, 03:37 PM   #10
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Years ago I pondered buying a Blackhawk in 30 carbine. Never did do it. The thought of all that fire scared me.

Of course now with the .460 I have, and after shooting a .500 S&W as well, the blast from a .30 carbine revolver might seem tame....
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:37 PM   #11
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There were several delayed blowback carbine sized .30 carbine weapons designed after WW2. The French made a few, though I don't think they issued those, and the Dominican Republic built some on a design based on the Berreta SMG with a unusual delayed opening bolt feature.
In the Phillipines they have made advanced ignition short barreled machine pistols in .30 carbine. These being black market PDW type weapons sold to those civilians who feel vulnerable to guerilla or pirate attacks.

A short barreled .30 Carbine weapon looses a lot of muzzle energy.
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:44 PM   #12
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I have shot several .30 Carbine pistols, mostly the Automag III, I believe. It as not the same pistol as the other Automags, more like the .22 Mag. they made.

The ones I shot were pleasant shooting with very mild recoil, though considerable flash. And they never offered any advantage over a good .357 Magnum revolver.

Though I have seen some of the old Kimball pistols, I never had the pleasure of firing one.

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Old February 1, 2013, 04:52 PM   #13
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You know what would be really cool would be a shorty AR upper in 30 Carb and a lower adapter for M1 Carbine mags. An AR pistol in 30 Carb would be awesome!
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Old February 1, 2013, 06:37 PM   #14
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I think there was an Automag .30.
I got to shoot the Automag (II I think) in .30 carbine once.

The thing was the LOUDEST thing on the indoor range.

Was a fun gun to shoot.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:35 PM   #15
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I have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine. Years ago surplus ammo was super cheap and it was a hoot to shoot. Now that all that old war ammo supply is dried up it has been delegated as a safe queen.
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Old February 1, 2013, 08:53 PM   #16
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FWIW, in WWI, many troops were issued pistols/revolvers, much of the reason M1911 pistols were scarce and Colt and S&W were asked to produce revolvers for the .45 ACP cartridge. At that time, squad leaders, assistant squad leaders, all company grade officers, machinegunners, assistant machinegunners, MPs, etc., etc. all carried pistols. Many of them couldn't hit anything with a handgun. The carbine was intended to replace almost all those pistols with a short, light rifle that would be easier to hit with and yet easy to carry for men whose duties involved other than direct engagement with the enemy or whose primary weapon was something other than the infantry rifle.

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Old February 1, 2013, 09:33 PM   #17
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And many who were issued carbines also got their hands on a .45 pistol when they saw the general ineffectiveness of the carbine.

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Old February 2, 2013, 08:24 AM   #18
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And many who were issued carbines also got their hands on a .45 pistol when they saw the general ineffectiveness of the carbine.
They must have been REMFs. My old man was a battalion armorer in Korea. He was at the Pusan Perimeter. He didn't have enough M1 and M2 carbines for the officers that wanted one, and several of them tried to pull rank to get the M2 he carried. Most of the officers already had a 1911.
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:30 AM   #19
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and then they found out what ineffective was when they realize they couldn't hit with the pistol so they went back to the carbine.
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:51 AM   #20
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Also I bet the 30 was better penetrating the quilted chicom armor than 45 acp.

Give me an N frame ten shot 30 carbine with a bunch of moon clips loaded with corbon dpx and I'm a happy man. Oh, and it has to not have the stupid lock.
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
FWIW, in WWI, many troops were issued pistols/revolvers, much of the reason M1911 pistols were scarce and Colt and S&W were asked to produce revolvers for the .45 ACP cartridge. At that time, squad leaders, assistant squad leaders, all company grade officers, machinegunners, assistant machinegunners, MPs, etc., etc. all carried pistols. Many of them couldn't hit anything with a handgun. The carbine was intended to replace almost all those pistols with a short, light rifle that would be easier to hit with and yet easy to carry for men whose duties involved other than direct engagement with the enemy or whose primary weapon was something other than the infantry rifle.

Jim
The pistol had been a primary fighting weapon for quite some time. Before repeating firearms or efficient breech loaders came along the only way to have a fair number of shots to fire in a fight was to carry several handguns.
It was not uncommon for some members of naval boarding parties to carry four or more single shot pistols slung around the neck by cords, or clipped to belts or bandoleers.
Black Bread the pirate carried at least nine pocket pistols on a bandoleer besides several full size boarding pistols.

I've seen photos of a unusual accessory for the 1911 pistol. It was a canvas wrist strap for the gun hand with about a half dozen or so magazines attached by cords through lanyard staples on the mag floor plate. This allowed rapid reloading when driving off pirates or defending a gunpit from charging infantry.
Another USN accessory was a pistol rack holding four 1911 pistols in simple leather holsters nailed to the board and a hand grip cut into the board. You could carry two of these in each hand if necessary to distribute pistols to the crew in case they had to repel boarders.

Pistol Carbines were around for a century or more before WW2, starting in the single shot muzzle loader days. They gave the compact carry of a handgun but allowed for a longer effective range.
The Colt revolvers improved on the pistol carbine, but repeating rifles made them obsolete till autoloaders like the C96 and artillery Luger came along.

During WW1 the Winchester self loading rifles were used to some extent, mostly by the French, in much the same manner as the M1 Carbine would be used in later years. There was even a heavily modified Winchester self loader entered in the trials that settled on the M1.
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Old February 2, 2013, 10:02 AM   #22
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Ya'll just need to go buy a S&W 632, 327 mag! I have the 632, SP101, Blackhawk, GP100 in this cal. 30 carbine with a rim!
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:02 PM   #23
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One big reason why Naval boarding parties carried handguns is because they could used them in the highly confined spaces under decks without running into maneuverability issues. A pistol also allowed them to carry another primary weapon, such as a cutlass or a boarding axe.

Blunderbuss-type weapons were also used because they were short, but they also required two hands, which was considered a liability.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:38 PM   #24
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I bought up the question about what Officers carried when my father was in France and he said that every officer in his group carried ether a M1 carbine or a few carried Grands along with 1911's.
When out in the hedgerows of France not caring a rifle meant you were an officer like it did in the German army. This makes you a prime target for snipers.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:57 PM   #25
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and then they found out what ineffective was when they realize they couldn't hit with the pistol so they went back to the carbine.
As armorer, i had my choice of weapons, so carried an M2 carbine and a .45. Some did trade in their carbines for M1 rifles, though. But the preferred weapon, other than the M1 rifle was the M3 submachine gun.

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