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Old January 29, 2013, 10:51 PM   #26
Tikirocker
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There is no accounting for ignorance ... these people are found in every stick. The worst of it is that they give the bum steer to many newcomers, something that often takes time and patience to correct.

Tiki.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:06 PM   #27
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Tiki,
I'll be along shortly to your forum to decipher some markings on this rifle. Its not a BSA Shirley produced No. 5 I don't believe. And Also I need to fine the "correct" sling to go on her. And did the No. 5 come with a 300/600 "L" Flip sight like this one has on it? This carbine has all the indications that its the real deal except for the flip sight.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:23 PM   #28
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Deerslayer ...

You're welcome at surplusrifle any time mate. There were only two factories that manufactured the No5 Mk1 ... Fazakerley being the most common and BSA Shirley. If it isn't one then by process of elimination, it must be the other. The correct sights for the No5 Mk1 are the No5 Mk1 singer type sights, you may know it as a Ladder sight ... the difference is the No5 Mk1 ladder sight is marked to 800 yards as opposed to the 1300 yards of the No4 equivalent. The 300/600 flip battle sight is only for the No4 rifles and generally these were produced for the Mk1* models ... though years in civvy street has resulted in all the sights being swapped around on different rifles.

The No5 sling was a jungle green web sling, typical of the British canvas style, though you'll be fine with the standard khaki version also.

Cheers, Tiki.
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:24 AM   #29
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Tiki

Well I can't post over there yet until they approve my account. But here is a few pics of the info I'll post over there, when they deem me worthy She is all tore completely down right now. Its FILTHY, gonna give er a bath tomorrow.




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Old January 30, 2013, 12:25 AM   #30
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more pics

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Old January 30, 2013, 12:48 AM   #31
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You have a Fazakerley ... the (F) electropencilled stands for exactly that! Congrats, she'll be a keeper for sure.

Tiki.
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Old January 30, 2013, 01:09 AM   #32
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Quote:
I don't call a MV of 2,720fps and 2465 ft lbs of energy
Would that be with a 150 gr bullet?
If so what brand of ammo?

Near as I can tell the British never used bullets lighter than the 174 gr MkVII, though theres no telling what various sporting ammo manufacturers have tried.

The MkVII bullet was actually based on a 150 gr hunting bullet, the "Velopex", that used a light weight nose plug. Velocity of that cartridge was around 2600 FPS.
For some time they considered using a 150 gr spire point at 2600 FPS, but the available propellents of the day were better suited to the 174- 225 gr bullets.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:42 AM   #33
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yes that is modern 150gr. ammo. Those numbers are Norma hunting ammo. I load mine with 150sp .311 bullet 41grs IMR 3031 and that gets over 2600fps. It just irritates me to hear someone say the cartridge is "anemic". It has stood the test of time and for a cartridge that was originally designed for black powder, it had done quite well with cordite and smokeless.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:56 AM   #34
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Don't let internet experts get to you. Round here the average caliber for whitetail deer at under 75 yards is the 7mm Rem mag! Power replacing placement is such a silly idea.

FWIW the .303 british was determined to be "too powerfull" & "Excessive", after WW@ & there were serious attempts to replace it with something having ballistics akin to the 30-30.
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Old January 30, 2013, 07:11 PM   #35
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Good for you, glad you got the No. 5, it's a fun rifle to shoot and iconic enough that no one will see it and not think it's neat. The green sling is the correct one, but the khaki sling is fine, they used that in Cyprus. Get a bayonet, the genuine ones are $200 and up, some good repros out there for less. Stock up on the stripper clips, they're getting scarce. Ammo bandoliers are scarce, but available, in green or khaki.
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:30 AM   #36
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Quote:
FWIW the .303 british was determined to be "too powerfull" & "Excessive", after WW@ & there were serious attempts to replace it with something having ballistics akin to the 30-30.
All the Main Battle Rifle cartridges were in that same boat, the Germans and Russians being among the first to look to intermediate cartridges for autoloaders.

The 7.62 NATO was not much more than a rimmless .303, with case better suited to mid length stroke autoloader actions.
There was a slight edge in velocity, mainly due to better propellents.

Ballistically the 150 gr commercial loads mentioned early are a duplicate of early NATO Ball ballistics.

The MkVII bullet caught a lot of flack because of excessive tissue distruction of non fatal wounds. Its killing power was never in question, but the lack of high quality anti-biotics among the AXIS powers medical corps (only the U S could mass produce Penicillin at that time) meant fewer survivals of wounded men and a much higher amputation rate because of tissue disruption and fragmenting.
A similar issue came up when some 7.62 ammo was found to fragment in much the same way, that ammo being officially pulled from production, the fragmentation was blamed on improperly made jackets.

PS
A penetration of sand bags or packed earth of 48 inches is often quoted for the .303. That did not match the results of my own tests with the MkVII ammo so I did some searching and found that this was the figure for the MkVI bullet. Later manuals state that the pointed bullet (MkVII) gave penetration of more like 42 inches, which is optimistic to say the least.
The older round nose bullets of the MkVI .303 and the .30-40 Krag out penetrated any of the later spire point Ball rounds of the same or lesser weight despite higher velocities.
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Old January 31, 2013, 08:29 AM   #37
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That was my point in reference to the "under powered" comments from earlier.

The 7.62mm NATO wasn't the load I was mentioning, that was the U.S. T65 type "improvment" to the 30-06. I was thinking of the "intermediate power" rounds like the .270/280 that were originally in development for the EM-1 & EM-2 series as being comparable with the Soviet 7.62X39 round for the SKS/AK 47 & other similar loads. Those are ballistically similar to the 30-30.

I've done a bit of informal testing myself. The actual woodliegh type bullets with the dual core (not all MkVII had this core, particularly some of the "commonwealth made" stuff) were efired side by side at 200yds with 150 gr 7.62mm NATO ball ammo. The old .303 made much more impressive holes in wetpack. my buddy who was shooting the 7.62 comparison rifle called them "Post hole diggers"
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Old January 31, 2013, 01:50 PM   #38
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Wow, Deerslayer. That is one cool-looking rifle!

I'm jealous.

Congrats.
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Old January 31, 2013, 07:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
That was my point in reference to the "under powered" comments from earlier.

The 7.62mm NATO wasn't the load I was mentioning, that was the U.S. T65 type "improvment" to the 30-06. I was thinking of the "intermediate power" rounds like the .270/280 that were originally in development for the EM-1 & EM-2 series as being comparable with the Soviet 7.62X39 round for the SKS/AK 47 & other similar loads. Those are ballistically similar to the 30-30.
Several countries had experimented with intermediate cartridges before WW2. The Garand was originally intended to be chambered for the .276 Pederson cartridge which was practically identical in performance to the later British .280 in performance.
The British had tested a toggle link autoloader in that .276 caliber before the war.
The modern 6.8 Remington is in that same class.

The British used the No.5 carbine platform in testing of a number of intermediate cartridges, including the .280 and 7.62X39. I think these test rifles were single loaders, but some may have been modified to feed from a magazine.
A few have altered Lee Enfields for the 7.62X39 and the 5.56 cartridges in recent years.

The 7.62X39 is near identical to the .30-30 when the later is loaded with 125 gr bullets, but you seldom see the 125 gr .30-30 rounds these days, 150-170 gr being the standard loads.
The Remington autoloaders in .30 Remington (basically a rimless .30-30) , and fitted with long curved box magazines, were used on a small scale in much the same manner as an assault rifle, though without selective fire capability.

I'd have to say that the main battle cartridges were a better choice for most of the fighting done during WW2 and Korea.
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Old February 1, 2013, 12:43 PM   #40
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Not that all that isn't rue, but I think you're totally missing the point that the .303 (along wirth almost everything else) was actually over powered, nothing was under powered.
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:34 PM   #41
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I'm not missing the point, I never said the .303 is under powered. Whether it was over powered is a matter of opinion.
As recent developments in the mid east have shown theres still a place for the main battle cartridges.
The intermediate cartridges have often fallen short on todays battle fields, and would not have been a good choice for most of the fighting of WW2.
The Assault Rifle is a jacked up SMG when it comes down to it.

In the more open battle fields of mountain ranges and in dense forest and jungle foliage the Main Battle cartridge is king.
The intermediate cartridges often can't penetrate common urban barriers for that matter.
The LMG in 7.62 and the Designated Marksman Rifle in 7.62 must take up the slack.
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Old February 1, 2013, 04:52 PM   #42
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Quote:
I'm not missing the point,
Actually you are. I was referring to this posted earlier, not any comment you made.
Quote:
the second is the anemic 303 British round and the third is the rifle's reputation for having a less than robust action that is rated for only moderate pressure levels.
It wasn't about you.
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Old February 1, 2013, 05:08 PM   #43
Rainbow Demon
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Then we have been in agreement on that point, the rest is just back story.
Nothing over powered about the .303. Other even more powerful cartridges were sucessfull in autoloading infantry rifles and LMGs.
The Assault Rifle and its intermediate cartridges are an entirely different animal, no better than comparing a intermediate rifle cartridge to a pistol cartridge. Some overlap there these days as well.

The 150 gr loads which were never adopted would have been better suited to the lightweight No.5 Carbine, lesser recoil and lower trajectory, plus less stress on the lightened action body, etc.
A faster burning propellent with coolant additives would have reduced muzzle blast. But there was no impetus to further develop the cartridge after WW2.

Last edited by Rainbow Demon; February 1, 2013 at 05:16 PM.
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Old February 5, 2013, 05:27 AM   #44
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Hi guys, new here and just chiming in on my favourite topic

Looking at the numbers comparing .308 and .303Brit, (Military loads) you find the lighter .308 pill getting out of the gate a bit quicker, mainly due to developments in case design and propellants.. where the heavier .303 projectile carves a slightly higher curve, at about 1000yds their speeds have converged and the .303 actually has more retained energy.
Doesn't matter, really... a CBM hit from either at that range will seriously ruin your day.. the whole point here is these days you are more in danger of having dirt flicked into your eye by bouncing bullets at 1000yds than you are of skin breaking wounds. Ha! .223 why would you bother?
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Old February 5, 2013, 06:50 AM   #45
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For those new to the No5 or interested, I have posted a Visual reference guide here --> http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...942002#p942002 and at the surplus rifle Wiki page here --> http://www.surplus-rifle.com/2013/02...k1-fazakerley/

Cheers, Tiki.
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Old February 5, 2013, 02:58 PM   #46
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Quote:
Looking at the numbers comparing .308 and .303Brit, (Military loads) you find the lighter .308 pill getting out of the gate a bit quicker, mainly due to developments in case design and propellants.. where the heavier .303 projectile carves a slightly higher curve, at about 1000yds their speeds have converged and the .303 actually has more retained energy.
Thats why the 7.62 NATO M118 SB and LR cartridges with 175 gr boat tail bullets are used for long range shooting by MG or Sniper.
The 150 gr .30-06 load had less effective range than the .303 in indirect MG fire so they developed the .30 M1 ball and matchgrade with bullets of 170+ gr.
They settled on the 150-152 gr M2 Ball for rifle use because the M1 Ball exceeded the safety limits of the rifle ranges in use in those days. That and recoil of the heavier bullet loads contributed to shooter fatigue.

At normal infantry ranges where the individual soldier is likely to score a hit on a mansize target the lighter and faster bullet will have the lowest maximum trajectory. The kill zone at a point blank sight setting is much greater if the velocity is even a few hundred FPS faster.
The difference can be made up for by better training and range estimation techniques.

For hunting the bullet choice, (weight, profile, etc) depends entirely on the game being hunted.
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Old February 6, 2013, 07:53 AM   #47
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This is where the technological advances and experiences of tried and proven battle equipment from about the late 1950's onward comes out. Where the humble .303Brit was already forgotten for all intents and purposes, ongoing development of the .308/ 7.62 x 51 saw it making a name for itself as being a very adaptable case wrt propellant types and loads as well as projectile forms and masses.
I would not be surprised if the round is still in use in another fifty years.

I have had the pleasure of trying a lot of platforms for the 7.62 x 51 as well as the .338Lap and the 50BMG quite recently. I enjoy shooting the variety of arms and ammunition natures- nothing beats clanging a head sized steel spinner continuously at 800m, hitting torso sized out to 1500... but for real old style grin factor, I still roll out a No1 MkIII* and a few dozen rounds of MkVII ball (none of those squib rounds for me... the use of which will never show up a wandering zero in a No5 BTW... ) and shoot something that makes a noise when hit.

Cheers
MAX P
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Old February 6, 2013, 06:08 PM   #48
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The .303 is actually a better case for the heavier bullets than the .308.
Till they developed the Winchester Palma match case with semi balloonhead the short neck and short OAL of the .308 meant the base of heavier bullets could intrude into the powder space with resulting diminishing returns as powder charges had to be keep increasingly smaller in volume to avoid excessive chamber pressures.

Improved propellents have offset that diminishing return aspect. Still with the heavier bullets chamber pressures are greatly increased compared to the .303 with relatively little increase in velocity.
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