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Old February 26, 2013, 10:39 PM   #51
Hellgate
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This is not particularly Civil War but I have noticed that the American Indian illustrations of battle scenes may be somewhat cartoonish but are actually more realisitic. They often showed much blood coming out of the mouths of the killed/wounded soldiers. Not the little trickle of a chewed capsule of dye seen in a deathe scene in the movies but rather blood spraying out as if you are coughing out from blood filled lungs due to a shot through the chest. That last photo was more like what the indians would have drawn.
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Old February 27, 2013, 12:09 AM   #52
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Thanks Jolly1. You certainly filled in a lot of stuff on Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans. Any idea who the Pandours are? I've heard of them but never learned anything.
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Old February 27, 2013, 10:56 AM   #53
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The large area of blood to the right side of the forehead has a border that lines up very well with the nose. It makes it look almost as if the forehead is flattened. I think that might be a slight illusion created by that line.
He definitely received a violent wound while his heart was beating as evidenced by the hemorrhage from the nasal and oral cavities. Looks like a penetrating wound on the bridge of the nose causing massive damage to the
underlying structures of the nasal cavities and cranial vault. My first impression was shrapnel wound. I'm betting he was already dead when he hit the ground.
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Old February 27, 2013, 11:49 AM   #54
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Bushmaster,

I see what appears to be evidence of blunt force trauma to the forehead and over the left eye.

I noticed the canon brush near the body and thought this could have been a premature ignition.

Comments???

Last edited by 10851Man; February 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM.
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Old February 27, 2013, 12:43 PM   #55
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@ gary: Pandouri

Gary, just ask!

Now, this is a rough story - which will shed some light on modern fashion, not really arms related.

In the slang of Balkan people, pandur (origin from word you mentioned) means a cop, in a bad manner. This is a policeman in bad meaning of the word, somebody terrorizing poor honest and peaceful people...

The word comes from the time of mediaval wars, when one of most succesful military leaders was Baron Franjo Trenk. He had formed a unit under his command of elite soldiers and cavalary, fighting against the enemies of Austria. (foreign and domestic)
The name of unit was "Trenkovi panduri", or "the Trenks pandours".
Thats the answer you asked for, however the story goes on.

The unit was formed in 1740 for the purpose of fighting the war with Prussians by barun Franjo Trenk and full support of Maria Teresia, the Austrian Empress. At the begging the unit consisted of 1000 men. In later years upgraded to more then 3000. the ranks were split between pandoures (infantry), and housars (cavalry).

Pandours weaponry consisted of two pairs of muzzle loading pistols, a sword, a sabre and a muzzleloading rifle or musket. During their war history they were deployed from France, to Prussia and up to Checkia. Their skill, succes and ruthlessness against much stronger enemy force made their name quite infamous.

Barun Trenks exploits were noted amongst the wider European nobility, and there was always need for skilled and experienced soldiers to be used in other smaller wars and conflicts elsewhere in Europe.

So, it was Baron Trenk, with his pandoures often called for assistance when the need arose. And was paid well for the services rendered.

There was widely spread saying amongst middle Eropean nations saying: "God save us from plague and Croats", which is quite self explanatory. i would guess, from the reason that lower ranks were fighting for the prize...

So his unit was one of the first in history to be used as "soldiers of fortune", or hired paramilitary unit, which is hystorically less known fact.
They acted within strict military discipline (at liest on the battlefield) and one of their symbols was a tie, as a part of their uniform, the rest of uniform looked very much made under turkish influence - for simple reason - they kicked the Otomans out of Slavonia - northern part of Croatia, and took their colors, to which they integrated a tie. This also added to their image of fearless and ruthless combatants.

This is the same tie we use today - this was actually first used as a part of military uniform and their symbol widely recognized, feared and deeply respected.

The other word for a tie, is "kravata", or "croata", and simply beacuse these guys were Croats, thus the name for this fashion article.

The nobility (they were fighting for) quickly accepted this part of uniform as a fashion and status symbol of a winning side, and the tie remained in western dress code ever since.

Completely off-topic, but there is another story of why the buttons on the sleeves are part of modern business suits. The story goes like this: great percentage of Austro hunagrian court servants came from Croatian rural country. Those servants had a nasty habit of wiping their noses using their sleeves, which did not look good at all.

So some of the Austrian emperors (not sure which) put a stop to nose wiping using sleeves by making an order that servants uniform must have buttons starting from elbow, down to wrist.
Thus even the buttons remained.(on modern suit)

Last edited by jolly1; February 27, 2013 at 01:18 PM.
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Old February 27, 2013, 01:11 PM   #56
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the tactics

Further to above, just add a word on Trenks tactics:

In the time, the military tactics mostly used was a line tactics at open fields previously discussed in more details.

The Trenk's unit used the tactics of breaking the enemy line, by fearless attacks and disorganizing and spliitng the enemy force, and later decimating the scaterred units - allowing supporting conventional allied force great advantage.

The origin of tactics so much in nature of balkan frontier people - I mentioned earlier.

Several decades later, similar tactics deployed at naval warfare brought all the glory to admiral Horatio Nelson, but will not go into this now.
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Old February 27, 2013, 05:10 PM   #57
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10851man,

In order for a bruise(raspberry) like that to fill in, he would have to have blood pumping to that area. Does look mechanical what with the even looking diameter though. Perhaps a knockout blow then a bayonet stab to the face at the bridge of the nose? Hell the possibilities are endless, which is what makes these things so engrossing. One of the nurses I work with saw me holding my laptop up at a weird angle while i was looking at this and came to investigate. lol She was intrigued as well with my civil war P**N. As far as the cannon brush, I always assume that such things are set dressing by the photographer. Unless its sticking out of his head
I see blood to the right forehead and running from the right nostril down the right side of the mouth to the chin. I'm leaning towards him falling straight back long enough for some blood to start on that right side then turning to the left and bleeding out? But something penetrated the bridge of the nose.
Got any more like this? I had a book in Germany on wound ballistics in both theaters of operation in WWll. About 4" thick with case studies from the front lines with detailed photos, projectiles used, velocities, etc. Used to study it for hours. Till it got stolen
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Old February 27, 2013, 06:59 PM   #58
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Blow the pic up and you can clearly see a jagged piece of metal sticking out of the bridge of his nose and possibly another one in his chin and the blood line on the forehead shows up better. He has multiple frag wounds on his face and body as evidenced by the many small holes in his jacket.
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:08 PM   #59
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@ Bushmaster,

I did a lot of work with ballistics in my LEO career so I too find this fascinating.

I think you are correct about the canon brush. I found an additional image of the same soldier taken from a wider angle and the brush isn't there.



There are hundreds of small details in this image!!!
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:14 PM   #60
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In this image, I see the sheath of his sword coming out from under his coat and a white feather near the tip. In the smaller image of this, previously posted, it looks like a paper cartridge near his head...
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:18 PM   #61
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Quite a few things going on in this image. Looks like a gunshot wound to the wrist...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:22 PM   #62
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Just a young fellow here with no shoes...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:23 PM   #63
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Significant head trauma in this image...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:28 PM   #64
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Great posts

But I was surprised no one corrected the OP(unless i missed it). There was never a Civil War, that would signify a uprising or revolt. That did not happen. War between the States, War of Northern Agression, and War of Succession are better terms. Civil War is the same as saying "clips" when you mean "magazine". The term Civil War was used by Northern newspapers to ligitimize the invasion of the South. Propaganda still propagated today.

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:32 PM   #65
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Probably staged, but note damaged weapon in background...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:34 PM   #66
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Another facial wound in the foreground...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:36 PM   #67
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Another casualty. Based on his death posture, I would speculate he suffocated...


Last edited by 10851Man; February 27, 2013 at 07:42 PM.
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Old February 27, 2013, 07:37 PM   #68
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Another image of good quality, apparently a head wound...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:40 PM   #69
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Another casualty...

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:52 PM   #70
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Not civil war, but interesting nonetheless. Print from negative in the Library of Congress. Alabaman Rube Burrows was a train robber, primarily in Texas. He was killed in Linden, Alabama, where he had been captured and handcuffed to a bench. Using a hidden pistol, he got free from the handcuffs then went looking for another of his captors who had taken his Marlin rifle. Burrows was killed in the ensuing gunfight.

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Old February 27, 2013, 07:59 PM   #71
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The boy with no shoes probably had them taken after he died. Good shoes were in short supply among the southerners.
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Old February 27, 2013, 08:03 PM   #72
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John Johnston, the real "Jeremiah Johnson." His native american wife was killed by the Crow people.He embarkd on a 12yr vendetta against the tribe. He would cut out the liver of each man he killed. This was an insult being the Crow believed by eating the liver of animals they killed they recieved its vitality.He was a sailor,union soldier in 1864 Colorado Calvery,Scout,hunter, guide, & whiskey peddler.

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Old February 27, 2013, 08:04 PM   #73
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Cole Youngers rig. We are direct descendants of Bob Younger...

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Old February 27, 2013, 08:06 PM   #74
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Uncannily life-like death photo of Northfield Minnesota bandit Bill Chadwell. Nice shot...

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Old February 27, 2013, 08:08 PM   #75
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Oklahoma bandit William 'Bill' Doolin felled by a shotgun blast...

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