The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 2, 2013, 07:41 AM   #26
indy1919
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2011
Posts: 277
I want to thank all who posted photos here... I do have to say that I have seen the devils Den photo all my life and I always had questions about it and now there are even more questions??


Does anyone know how long after the battle it was that these photos were taken???

As a child I do always remember wondering about how that fine looking rifle was just left behind, You would have thought the army that occupied the battlefield afterwards would have gathered them up, and of course Souvenir hunters.. Now it looks like the rifles were picked up, and the Photographer provided the rifle.. (God the press has always been the same, if you can not report the news, just make it up)..



For example in the photo of the bloated bodies, I do not recall seeing any rifles on the ground.. ???? and that seems like a photo that is more "real" and less "stageable"...
indy1919 is offline  
Old February 2, 2013, 08:16 AM   #27
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,593
After the battle the Provost Marshal attempted to secure the battlefield. The government got dibs (title) to all the battlefield litter. This meant any gun, accoutrements, field equipment left there. Looters were to be arrested.

However, countless civilians wandered the battlefield often to succor the wounded. It is estimated that several thousand responded to help or play lookey loo. Many pretended to help but used that guise to carry off souvenirs. there is a target telescope rifle that was purported to have been found at Devil's Den. It bore the initials HCP and some think it was Henry Clay Poor of the First Texas that fought there alongside with the Third Arkansas. Poor was wounded there but survived the war. That gun now belongs to the Gettysburg Museum.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 03:26 PM   #28
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
@ Indy1919 @ 4V50Gary,

Sixteen-year-old John H. Rosensteel found a 36-pound rifle with a telescopic sight on July 5, 1863, at Devil's Den. A small brass plate on the stock was inscribed "HCP 1862." Rosensteel went on to amass thousands of relics that are the core of the national military park's collection and this rifle, his first artifact, is displayed at the visitor center. For years the sign with the rifle noted that its owner was not known.

In the meantime Raymond H. Herrington of Austin, Texas, had an interest in the Civil War. He visited the Gettysburg battlefield during a trip east to see the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. "I didn't know I had any relatives or anything and went to the museum a little bit," he recalls.

Then his aunt, Artie Fay Powell McDonald, now 88 and living in California, sent information that led Herrington back to Gettysburg. She's the family genealogist, doing it the old-fashioned way, going through hard copies, not the Internet, Herrington says. She sent information that Herrington's great-grandfather, 20-year-old Henry Clay Powell, served in Co. K, 1st Texas Infantry, at Gettysburg and he was wounded on July 2, 1863.

During a trip last summer to see the Korean War Veterans Memorial in Washington, Herrington and his wife Zelda returned to Gettysburg. As they waited for a tour with a licensed battlefield guide they visited the visitor center exhibits.

When guide John Fuss began the tour he asked, as he always does, if Herrington was a descendant or had a special interest. Learning about Herrington's connection to the 1st Texas, Fuss says he talked a little more about the unit's action at Devil's Den and "it led to 'there's a sharpshooters rifle here with HCP on it.'"

Herrington had seen the rifle and the two men began to think the impossible - that rifle owner HCP was Herrington's great-grandfather.

By the time Herrington returned home information had been forwarded by Fuss and soon park museum specialist Paul Shevchuck was researching the possibility.

Herrington's great-grandfather was wounded in the head, which made sense if he were a sharpshooter. The rifle, which was made in Keene, N.H., was not government issue, and it had the brass plate with initials, two indications that it was someone's personal weapon. The gun's owner would not have left it on the battlefield unless he were wounded or killed.

These leads didn't prove that HCP was Henry Clay Powell. In fact Shevchuck found several HCPs in Texas and Arkansas rosters of units that were in Devil's Den. Then it came down to Texans H.C. Powell and H.C. Patrick.

Which man was the Gettysburg sharpshooter?

Herrington, a retired state auditor, put his digging skills to work. He found H.C. Patrick in the Texas archives. Patrick was ruled out as the Gettysburg sharpshooter - he had lost an arm the year before at Antietam.

Gettysburg's HCP was Henry Clay Powell.

In recognition of the new information the park changed the display this past June. Visitors can see the rifle on the left as they enter the exhibit gallery.

Herrington and his wife Zelda returned Gettysburg on July 28 to see the display and take pictures. He held his great-grandfather's heavy rifle, "the thrill of my life." Herrington says the park did a "wonderful job" with the display.

After he learned he was a Confederate descendant Herrington joined George Washington Littlefield Sons of Confederate Veterans Camp 59 in Austin. He's treasurer and joins camp members for parades and grave marking ceremonies. He wore his Confederate uniform when he returned to Gettysburg and John Fuss took him again to Devil's Den where his ancestor was wounded.

The Herringtons are coming east again in September and will take relatives from Massachusetts to see the rifle and new display at Gettysburg. They'll meet John Fuss and Paul Shevchuck, revisit Devil's Den, and take plenty of video since many relatives, including Aunt Artie Fay, won't be able to travel to Gettysburg.

Battlefield guide Fuss says, "This is one of the most interesting episodes I've been involved in" in his 12 years of guiding. He gave 59 tours to descendants last year and has had more than 30 tours this year with people who had an ancestor or association to the battle. He doesn't count the many who mistakenly believe they're related to Robert E. Lee, the Gettysburg figure with the most "descendants."

Henry Clay Powell survived three Civil War wounds and died in 1892 of pneumonia at the age of 50. He and his wife and a wagon full of their 10 children had gone to Oklahoma for the land rush. She died of pneumonia 10 days after her husband and their children were farmed out, not seeing each other again for decades. One of them was Aunt Arty May's father....
10851Man is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 03:32 PM   #29
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
FYI....
10851Man is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 03:58 PM   #30
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410


CPL. ABNER COLBY, CO. G., USSS uniformed in his ubiquitous green frock coat kneeling with an early civilian target rifle with telescopic sight adopted for use by Berdan’s famous Sharpshooters. Scratched on the silver backing plate is, “A.D. Colby/Co G./N.H./U.S.S.S.”

In June 1862 the civilian weapons were replaced by the .52 caliber M1859 Sharps Rifle specially altered with a double-set trigger making this Sharpshooter image fairly early. Abner Colby enlisted as a private in the New Hampshire Company (G) of the 2nd USSS in October 1861 and was later promoted to sergeant having been present at all of the major battles fought by the famous Sharpshooters including Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, and Gettysburg.

Sergeant Colby was captured on May 7, 1864 during the battle of the Wilderness and spent the next ten months in various Confederate prisons camps among them the notorious Andersonville. In 1878 Colby applied for an invalid pension and wrote in his affidavit:

“While my company was engaged in the battle of the Wilderness, Va. on the 6th day of May 1864. I was taken prisoner by the enemy while I was accompanying an aide of Gen. Birney, who was carrying an order. I had always been in good health up to this time. After being taken prisoner I was taken to Gordonsville, Va. where I remained about a week. I was then in prison at Lynchburg, Va. about a week. I was then sent to Andersonville, Ga. where I remained about four months. I was then taken to Florence, S.C. where I remained about five and a half months. I was then paroled I think about February 1865, after having been a prisoner ten months nearly. After I had been at said Anderonsville about two months I was taken with chronic diarrhea....”

Colby goes on to state in detail what occurred at Andersonville and Florence and how the captivity had ruined his heath 13 years later.

In March 1865 Colby returned to his company which had been transferred to the 5th New Hampshire Infantry the previous month. Sergeant Colby was discharged at Concord, N.H. on June 21, 1865 and lived the rest of his life in Newton Center, Massachusetts. In 1886 (A.G.O. Nov. 19, 1886) Colby’s service record was formally amended to reflect his promotion to 1st lieutenant (from June 11, 1864), and captain (from January 16, 1865). Officially then, Colby mustered out of the sharpshooters as captain on June 21, 1865. The old soldier answered the final roll call on June 6, 1900.

Rest in peace....
10851Man is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 04:16 PM   #31
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
Pleasant Riggs Crump (December 23, 1847 – December 31, 1951) is the last verifiable veteran who fought for the Confederacy during the American Civil War....

Alabama's Last Surviving Confederate Soldier

Taps sounded Monday night, 31 December 1951, for Colonel Pleasant Riggs Crump. Just as the old year was breathing its last, so did Colonel Crump. Nearly 86 years had passed since the guns of war were stilled. The last of Alabama's gray-clad warriors who battled valiantly under the Stars and Bars in the War between the States had quietly gone to the last great Camping Grounds, joining many thousands of his gallant comrades in gray, in the Valhalla of heros where they will be together for all eternity. Colonel Crump died in Lincoln, Alabama, a town oddly enough bearing the same name of the Commander-in-Chief of the United Forces against whom he had fought.

Colonel Crump, 104 years old on 23 December, was an eye-witness to the surrender of General Robert E. Lee's forces to General U. S. Grant at Appomattox Courthouse. Friends and neighbors of the old soldier and members of Talladega's Civitan Club helped him celebrate around a birthday cake decorated with 104 candles. He was made an honorary member of the Civitan Club.

Crump was born 23 December 1847 in Crawford's Cove, near Ashville, St. Clair County, Alabama. The year he was born, James K. Polk was President of the USA, and Indians were on the warpath in sections of the country.

Sometime during his second century, he received the Honorary Title of "Colonel" from President Harry Truman.

In 1863, just when the hopes of Confederate armies were waning, one of his young neighbors, who had been fighting in the 10th Alabama Regiment in the Virginia Campaign, came home on leave. Crump decided to enlist and took off at the age of 16 with his neighbor boy for Petersburg and joined the forces of Northern Virginia.

He fought through many of the Virginia battles and saw the end of the Confederacy at Appomattox .

Forty-eight years after, Colonel Crump recalled how he was just across the road from the McLean House that Sunday, and how, later, he took his little part in the awful drama of the Stacking of the Arms. He would become its last surviving soldier-witness from Alabama.

Ex-private Crump returned to St. Clair County, and when he was 22 he married Mary Hall of Lincoln. He settled on 38 acres of land given to him by his father-in-law. His farm was just over the St. Clair County line from Lincoln. He lived there, in the house he built, for 78 years until his death.

He and Mary had five children and were a family until she died in 1901, fifty years to the day before her husband died. In 1905 he "took" Ella Wall s of Childersburg. Their home lasted 36 years until her summons came in July 1942.

Colonel Crump left behind only 20 Civil War Veterans who had borne the battles in this long-ago: twelve Rebs and eight Yanks. It had been a goodly distance from Appomattox and, for Pleasant Crump, one well worth traveling. Perhaps it gave him a certain spiritual uplifting in being one of the few boys in gray to share their astounding final Confederate Victory in number over the existing Union Army.

The United Confederate Veterans awarded him the honorary title of colonel. In 1950, he met with 98-year-old Gen. James Moore, who was then recognized to be the only other remaining veteran of Alabama. They are shown together in this photo:



Crump died having just turned 104 on December 31, 1951 and is buried in Hall Cemetery, Lincoln.

Last edited by 10851Man; February 4, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
10851Man is offline  
Old February 17, 2013, 10:24 AM   #32
Hawg Haggen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,639
Here is the Devil's Den soldier in his original location.

Hawg Haggen is offline  
Old February 17, 2013, 10:16 PM   #33
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,593
It's well known that the photographer staged the photo at Devil's Den.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 05:30 AM   #34
Hawg Haggen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,639
Almost all C.W. photos are staged. Especially the ones with bodies.
Hawg Haggen is offline  
Old February 18, 2013, 07:23 AM   #35
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 1,884
You have to remember that in the pioneering days of photography, the film used was only sensitive to blue light. Orthochromatic film came about in the late 19th century and panchromatic film didn't come about until the early 20th century.
The film being only sensitive to blue light meant that blue items looked light colored and red items looked almost black.
Take this into account when making assumptions about colors based on shades of grey.

Staging photos was a practical necessity in the days of wet plate photography when a photographer needed a horse drawn wagon to haul the equipment needed to take a photo.

Last edited by B.L.E.; February 18, 2013 at 07:39 AM.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 10:19 AM   #36
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
True...I enjoy all the old photos...
10851Man is offline  
Old February 19, 2013, 02:10 PM   #37
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
This photo was staged...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Pistols & Pipe.JPG (15.4 KB, 54 views)
10851Man is offline  
Old February 20, 2013, 03:43 PM   #38
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
My most recent venture into civil war era fanaticism is to have Mike construct a gunbelt and holsters that would be 'correct' for an ex-civil war veteran on the plains following the war. Since inception, the rig has grown to accommodate dual cap boxes (for both 1862 Colts) and even the frogs for a saber.

Not to mention all the fired bullets and period coins...
10851Man is offline  
Old February 22, 2013, 08:58 AM   #39
bushmaster65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2012
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 135
10851,
That was an outstanding read about HCP.
I've never been able to understand the logic of the tactics back then.
Line abreast through open fields...
My historical passion has always been WWll so I don't know much about the
Civil war. So I was wondering, Were snipers/sharpshooters assigned by their CO's to fixed positions or were they "on their own"?
It just seems to me that no matter what era, a reasonable man would know that once they find your "hide", your time on this earth would be adjusted accordingly.
Also,
what do you CW aficionados recommend for intro reading for this subject?
I try to study from the political to the tactical.
__________________
"Why Johnny Ringo, you look like somebody just walked over your grave."
bushmaster65 is offline  
Old February 22, 2013, 12:22 PM   #40
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
Bushmaster,

From my studies, I have arrived at the following conclusions.

Snipers and Scouts were indeed employed as members of the regular army. However, Guerilla tactics were, at the time, considered uncivilized and un-gentleman like conduct.

Keep in mind that during the Revolutionary war a British sniper decided not to take the shot that would have killed George Washington because a shot to the back was considered cowardly at the time. The ‘skirmish line’ tactics were bred out of the revolutionary war.

Keep in mind Confederate sniper Charles Grace’s famous shot at Spotsylvania,
which killed Union General Sedgewick at nearly 1,000 yards, is officially recorded as the actions of a member of the army during the conflict.

Many ‘Partisan Rangers’ operated on their own and were not official members of the military. Quantrill’s Raiders and Confederate Sympathizer Sniper Jack Hinson (mentioned above) would fit into this category.
10851Man is offline  
Old February 22, 2013, 05:56 PM   #41
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 4,810
"Mosby's Rangers", by Jeffrey Wert is an excellent read.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old February 22, 2013, 11:43 PM   #42
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,593
Sharpshooters were often used as expert skirmishers. In some cases, "sharpshooters" were used as part of the line of battle. It was, after all, seen as just another onerous task that almost any infantryman could perform.

In the Union, there were both formal and informal ad-hoc sharpshooter units. Included in the former were regiments, battalions and companies that met the War Department's qualification for sharpshooting. This would include Berdan's Sharp Shooters, First Michigan Sharp Shooters, First New York Battalion Sharp Shooters, First Maine Battalion Sharp Shooters, etc. The latter were units raised in the field and manned by reputable (for the most part) marksmen who were detached from their parent organization and temporarily assigned to the ad-hoc command. There are numerous examples of this in both the Union Armies and the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia.

The Confederacy didn't have marksmanship qualifications. They had five methods of selecting men for sharpshooters. Not all of them yielded the most qualified candidate for the job either. Go here for an article on it: http://www.bivouacbooks.com/bbv9i1s1.htm

Not everyone who was an expert marksman joined a sharp shooter unit. The core of any regiment or battalion either North or South was a community based company. Folks enlisted with their brothers, fathers, uncles, co-workers, school mates, nephews, neighbors, friends, etc. They were loathe to part company to join a special unit of sharp shooters that was composed of strangers. Thus it could be found in most units a soldier who was a proficient marksman. That soldier would be called upon at times for a special task. "Take out that officer."

A few exceptional soldiers had access to "telescope target rifles," the period's vernacular for scoped rifles. Soldiers equipped with these often got to select their own spot on the battlefield. Sometimes they would be given special tasks like removing an enemy sharp shooter who was harassing their side.
Mind you, possession of such a weapon does not automatically make one a sharp shooter. In my own research, I have found one instant where a soldier wanted one to stay out of the charges. In another, one soldier bought one so he could play sharp shooter and avoid his normal duties as an infantryman.

Noted author of sniping history and former Curator of the Royal Armoury Museum at Leeds (UK), Martin Pegler wrote an article on the Corn-fed Sharp Shooters. We have corresponded with each other in the past. http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Artic...pshooters.html
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 08:52 AM   #43
jolly1
Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 65
10851Man is 100% partially right.

I am not much in the study of particular civil war battles in the states (as I live in Europe), but I try to read about military history and tactics in great battles.

One thing is, the sniping at those days was considered unethical, as 10851 said.

In a different war also on US soil, American revolution, much earlier, the same ethics applied. This was well shown in a movie "Patriot" with Mel Gibson. Targeting English officers was considered extremely unethical.

For civil war, one more thing to be considered. possible ignorance by commanders and NOT understanding of weapons ability. If the sharps rifle was understood as a breech loader (not a muzzleloader), then the commander might have considered change in tactics and would allow shooting from lying position by advancing unit, and using cover with suppressing fire.

This was against the military doctrine of the time, as majority of weapons was muzzle loader (still present in great mass numbers) and in a reality of the field it was the military doctrine of that time to load the muzzleloader from standing position.

Thus, the standing in the line and marching forward - hoping for a miss by enemy.

The most probably the thing that influenced such a doctrine was a cost of weapon. (this relate both to civil war and Amercian revolution)
The armies were mass supplied mostly with muskets, a long barreled weapon similar to rifle, but without rifling, smooth bore. And inaccurate
The production of rifling - or the rifle - is much more expensive in the process, the rifles of the day were mostly owned by private citizens for hunting, and they were paying for their expensive weapons. The armies were armed cheap with muskets.

Muskets are much worse with accuracy, and require opposing soldiers to get to each other closer in order to hit something with that unruffled rifle, which is also a muzzleloader.

This created the doctrine of marching in the line (two lines), loading by standing on the ground, while the next line shoots a salvo, and marching onwards. Unified salvo in such way has also better effect on enemy in order to cover for poor accuracy (similar to shotgun)
Also, when enemy is at open field at close range, lying on the ground would not do much good for taking the cover, and would reduce re-loading rate in muzzle loader for average soldier. The firing rate should be kept. Thus standing.

the doctrine of marching and standing was kept for a long time.

In civil war, breech loader (sharps) came with rifled barrel and increased accuracy and range, but was not appreciated and was used in standardized way, with some exceptions as mentioned above.

It will never be known how much lives have been lost (or saved) as those abilities of the rifle were not used for the change of field tactics. Unfortunately.
jolly1 is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 03:52 PM   #44
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
Good posts!
10851Man is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 10:12 PM   #45
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,593
Jolly1 - thank you for joining the discussion.

While rifles were certainly more expensive to manufacture than muskets, it was not the cost that was the determining factor in the limited use of the rifle. Rather, we must remember that linear tactics evolved from earlier warfare where masses of pikemen were supported matchlocked armed infantry. As pikes were phased out in favor of firearms, the linear formations remained. Gradually, the density decreased until by the Napoleonic era the British formation was only two lines strong.

Why the retention of the linear formation? It was believed that battles were won by massed firepower which would demoralize the enemy and render him vulnerable to the bayonet charge. Volume of fire and not accuracy was seen as the winning factor. Accuracy wasn't needed since if a soldier missed his opponent in front of him, there was always another one each side! Riflemen were seen as too independent and out of an officer's immediate control. It was believed that soldiers were brutes and needed supervision of an officer and this was another reason for maintaining the linear tactics into the era of the minie ball.

However, starting in the mid-1700s, some nations began issuing rifles in limited numbers. The rifle armed soldiers were specialists and many of the principalities of the Holy Roman Empire formed them into jager units. These units may be traced to the grenzers (border troops) of the Austro-Hungarian Empire that practiced ambushing the Ottomans from positions of concealment. The Ottomans of course returned the favor and I know they certainly did it to the Maltese and the Knights Hospitallers (Knights of Malta) during the Siege of Malta (1565). Returning to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, they introduced it to the rest of Europe and soon many of the German principalities/duchies/kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire had their own Jager units. So did the Poles and the Russians who also adopted the green coat the rifle for their jagers.

Even after the American Civil War, the inter-European Wars still saw the use of linear tactics. The Austro-Prussian War certainly had it and it was the last time the muzzle loading rifle musket was used in widespread numbers by one side in Europe. The Franco-Prussian War also saw linear tactics being used by both sides.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 12:40 AM   #46
jolly1
Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2012
Posts: 65
Hi Gary,
Thanks for input. Let me upggrade with Austro Hungarian - Ottoman conflicts.
When the Ottoman conquered Serbia (decisive battle held at Kosovo 1389- led to crash of Serbia, and Otoman rule of region for next 5 centuries) - this resulted in Serbian exodus to the west in following period. They settled in areas around present Croatian / Bosnian border. As Austro Hungarian empire was under full threat they took the Serbs and Croats in bordering region, and supported their stand giving them some benefits in terms of economy, autonomy, but mostly - they kept them well armed in order to keep the border.

The terrain is hilly, mountains, ridges, creeks, rivers, woods and without much "old fashion" fields to develop ordinary field tactics in terms of line warfare, which was one of the first conditions to make different type of military engagement.

Second, the people there (both Croats and Serbs) by character prefered and developed their own way of fighting - by ambushing from concealed positions, hills, woods, etc. Witout much care of the military ethics adn doctrine of the time.

Thirdly, Otomans had much stronger force and in order to keep the border - the lighter - defending force used the guerrilla tactics to keep stronger force engaged.

At open field this would not have happened.

The people keeping the border, with given autonomy in decision making and Austrian (and venetian) support were not the nobility, but commoners - thus there was no much ethics involved in whether it is ethical to target the officers or not, or to shoot from covered / concealed position or not - so they just acted the only practical way.

In the same time the usual ethical military doctrine, developed by nobility was somewhat different, but for some reason the Austrian court turned the blind eye as long as the border was kept, and the Austrian nationals did not really fight, except in the role of logistics, advisory role, military observeres etc.

As far as the last of 19th century wars were kept elswhere in Europe with old generals running the show, it is interesting to note the further development of rifle as a main military weapon.

Under such influence, famous mauser 98 was developed in longer version around 1898 which met the ww1 of 1914. The lenght of rifle was determined by the last wars in western Europe kept in line where long rifle is needed when firing over forward line of kneeling soldiers, the idea already obsolete by year 1898.

The ww1 has proven the weapon too long to be practical, thus it was shortened between the wars, and shorter mauser 98k (karabiner) was designed to be the main Wehrmacht weapon of ww2.

ww2 has shown that 7,92x57 ammo was to powerful, and too heavy - which also means the rifle was heavy. Which also means less ammo for soldiers to carry.
Average range used was up to 400 meters, so there was really no need for high power rifle.

Thus, medium power ammo evolved, first for german SG44 (sturm gewerhe 44 - german automatic assault rifle, seen first action in German para forces liberating Mussolini from capture) - in same caliber, same shell but with reduced load.

The next development with lessons learned after ww2 in medium power rifle and bullet was 7.62 x 39 - russian in semi auto rifle, and well known ak 47, and american 5.56. Designed for average ranges determined fromww2 experience.

Hi power rifle / ammo kept their practicability and use only as special and sniper weapon ever since.

And thus, the history, lessons learned and practicality and effect kept the role of sniper ever since.
jolly1 is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 05:25 PM   #47
Mk VII
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2000
Location: England
Posts: 336
In terms of hits obtained per pound of lead expended against time, the smoothbore musket had the advantage and that didn't change until the appearance of the Minié rifle.
Civil War tactics were a continuation of the Napoleonic ones, initially anyway - later both sides took to earthworks and digging and even barbed wire. While embracing the new technology, commanders often didn't know how to use it to best advantage.
Mk VII is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 06:22 PM   #48
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
The South did not have a large mechanical manufacturing base, due in part to a society built primarily around agriculture. As a result, the Confederacy bought roughly 350,000 rifles from a number of British firms including Birmingham Small Arms Trade (BSAT) and the London Armoury Corp.

Confederate specifications were for rifled muskets...FWIW
10851Man is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 07:55 PM   #49
10851Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: High Desert Mountains CA.
Posts: 410
Looks like a blunt strike to the forehead. What do you think???

10851Man is offline  
Old February 26, 2013, 08:55 PM   #50
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,122
"This poor soul was dragged around and used as a prop."

Photographers in those days even had their assistants lie down and pose as corpses for dramatic effect. That was done in some pictures of the Johnstown flood, where one white shirted "body" was thrown up in three different places!

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15325 seconds with 8 queries