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Old January 24, 2013, 11:27 AM   #1
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armor piercing legislation?

I heard Leon Panetta talk about this in a speech to troops and once again some mention on a ban.

But to my knowledge armor piercing ammo is already banned.

So what additional armor piercing are they talking about?

And what does regulating armor piercing ammo have to do with saving childrens lives?
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Old January 24, 2013, 11:33 AM   #2
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Most rifle ammo will penetrate standard police vests. The debate is left over from the old copkiller bullets issue - which was a nonissue or mythological.

It is still believed by idiots who don't know the technicalities.

It has little to do with kids but more with protecting police (not that this is not a bad thing - but a nonissue).

Handgun rounds have different rules than rifle rounds. So is it to ban most centerfire rifle rounds - who knows yet.

The stupidity is summarized by this paraphrased statement by a so-call conservative, the pompous tushy Joe Scarborough of MSNBC.

He 'said' - I don't see why if I take my six year old hunting, I need a 30 round clip full of cop killer bullets.

He's quite the expert
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Old January 24, 2013, 01:47 PM   #3
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The last floor debate on this subject(6-8 years ago?) would have been comical if it wasn't so potentially serious. It included the late Teddy Kennedy bloviating about how the "powerful" 30/30 round would go through body armor and gun safes...
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Old January 24, 2013, 02:20 PM   #4
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Quote:
The debate is left over from the old copkiller bullets issue - which was a nonissue or mythological.
Teflon coated 50 caliber bullets fired from the ceramic Glock 7 will take down a jet liner.

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Old January 24, 2013, 02:25 PM   #5
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Actually, the fed law doesn't ban all AP Ammo. I think it is M2 30.06 Ammo for the old M1 Garands and BAR that was set as an exception, no idea why.
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Old January 24, 2013, 03:27 PM   #6
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Every so oftern a new ammo hoax or at least misguidance gets foisted onto the public. The old KTW copkillers, that bullet was designed by cops for cops, if memory serves a solid brass bullet with teflon coating. Named for the officers who collaborated in its design, 99% of cops probably never saw one, never had access to one, and certainly never had need of one, promptly restricted to LE only. Anyone remember the White Rhino or Black Rhino (can't remember which it was) hoax, a bullet that penetrated a bullet proof vest then exploded like a HP when it hit flesh. Caused a heck of a verbal exchange at my office when I exclaimed BS!! loudly, my boss explained to me that I was an idiot as it had been reported to exist, never mind that within a few days it came out as a hoax.
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Old January 24, 2013, 03:51 PM   #7
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Anyone remember the White Rhino or Black Rhino (can't remember which it was) hoax, a bullet that penetrated a bullet proof vest then exploded like a HP when it hit flesh.
Black Talon. Collectors item these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon
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Old January 24, 2013, 05:03 PM   #8
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I remember a guy at the gun show selling the stuff for an exorbitant price with a big sign - banned by US Goverment and the UN.

There are AP 9mm handgun rounds but I don't recall many crimes in the USA with them.
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Old January 24, 2013, 05:07 PM   #9
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Panfisher is right, Black Talons do exist, but those mythical armor-piercing Rhino bullets never materialized. I bet they will appear on a list of AP ammo that must be banned and taken off the streets!
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:12 PM   #10
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North Carolina banned Teflon coated bullets. The irony being that test proved they were less likely to go through a vest. So they actually made things less safe for law enforcement.
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:39 PM   #11
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Remember when Ted Kennedy got up on the floor of the Senate in 2004 and demanded .30-30 ammo be banned by name because it would "penetrate 600 pound armored safes and armored limousines?"

Banning "armor-piercing" ammo is just an attempt to ban all ammo. Although given how spectacularly Teddy's attempt blew up in his face, I'd kind of like to see them try that one again.

Quote:
Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America. Armor-piercing ammunition for rifles and assault weapons is virtually unregulated in the United States. A Federal license is not required to sell such ammunition unless firearms are sold as well. Anyone over the age of 18 may purchase this ammunition without a background check. There is no Federal minimum age of possession. Purchases may be made over the counter, by mail order, by fax, by Internet
Source: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-20...-2.pdf#page=23 (Page S1634)

Never forget what these people really have in mind. "Common sense" gun control to them means they are the only ones with guns. We all know that Kennedy's speech is nonsense and recognize just how radical it is. They are going to try and sell us the same "We support the Second Amendment; but..." line of nonsense this time around as well.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; January 24, 2013 at 09:51 PM.
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Old January 24, 2013, 10:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
lcpiper ... Actually, the fed law doesn't ban all AP Ammo. I think it is M2 30.06 Ammo for the old M1 Garands and BAR that was set as an exception, no idea why.
Good, I think I may have a couple hundred rounds left of that stuff. I bought, I think, 500 rounds of it many years ago, and just used it for target shooting in my Garand. It's really pretty accurate ammo, although most ranges don't allow it any more.

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Old January 24, 2013, 11:43 PM   #13
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The language is dangerous especially when coming from legislators who know nothing about what they are talking about.

One thing is for sure I don't really see the average citizen being in more or less danger if someone has armor piercing ammo or not. No soft armor will stop an armor piercing round much less any other type of high powered rifle bullet.

The only people I would see that would be concerned would be ones wearing kevlar helmets, ballistic plates, using ballistic pavise shields,and riding in armored personel carriers.

Not to infer that a potential tyrannical government wants to make sure the heavy hitters have a significant advantage when they come to disarm everyone.
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Old January 25, 2013, 07:48 AM   #14
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A very few specific rounds are banned. US federal law bans handgun bullets manufactured of specific materials. Elite Ammunition got into difficulties with the BATFE for the offense of manufacturing bullets that could be used in handguns from a prohibited material/alloy.

Quote:
B)The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i)a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii)a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

BATFE told Barnes to cease and desist selling Banded Solid bullets in certain calibers:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-cont...ids-2012-2.pdf
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Old January 25, 2013, 08:27 AM   #15
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I still have a couple of boxes of S&W teflon coated 9mm. I bought them back in the early-mid 1980's thinking they would be worth a lot of money some day....I'm still waiting.
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Old January 25, 2013, 11:01 AM   #16
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Remember that the Nyclads were evil, also. Got a box of them.
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Old January 25, 2013, 01:46 PM   #17
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Nyclads, that's what they are called. Lots of evil spawning from those 30 year old Nyclads.
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Old January 25, 2013, 05:40 PM   #18
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Nyclads were evil??? They are nylon-coated, not Teflon. Nothing AP at all about nylon covered lead bullets. Pretty soft lead too, if I recall.
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Old January 25, 2013, 05:51 PM   #19
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I new a Korean war vet had a bunch of that M2 ammo during the war. He said the filled off the tips of the steel jacket to expose the lead core of the bullet. He called them "dum-dums".

But that was a war and it was hairy scarey for sure. I wouldn't blame him a bit.

I woulda used voodoo magic and chicken blood if I though it would help keep me alive.

I can across some of his ammo and decided it was best to leave it where it was and suggested the owner just bury it and forget it. Wasn't worth keeping.
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Old January 25, 2013, 06:02 PM   #20
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I would think it would save 0 lives, but I am assumig that they are talking about steel core ammo, not teflon coated.

But then again, I have assumed things before that I was incorrect about......
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:15 PM   #21
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Would that mean that M855 green tip 5.56mm ammo would be banned?
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Old January 27, 2013, 02:08 PM   #22
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(ii)a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Is this the wording of some real, currently existing US federal law?

If so, there are a lot of people who seem to be felons, since they make or sell or own the Barnes-X bullets that have jackets which are 100% of the total weight I mean, the all-copper bullets are all jacket....

Bart Noir
Who hasn't a single round of this exceptionally well-performing hollowpoint ammo. Nope. Not one.
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