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Old January 26, 2013, 09:32 PM   #1
spunky
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Florida laws about carrying without a permit.??

The Florida statutes say that I can carry a handgun to my place of business without a permit. I have my own ice cream truck. Can I carry a concealed weapon in my truck without a permit while I am operating my business? Anyone know?
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:38 PM   #2
MLeake
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Check handgunlaw.us, and check the laws on the Florida Department of Agriculture site (no idea why, but they handle concealed weapon issues in Florida).

The answer used to be that you could keep a gun in your glove box or center console, but you should check directly from the source.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:39 PM   #3
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Under Florida law, it's not unlawful to carry concealed in one's place of business (even if the person carrying is not the business owner). BUT, the fact that the place of business is also a vehicle might add a wrinkle or two.

The best answer is going to be to contact a Florida lawyer who's experienced with the state's firearm laws.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:43 PM   #4
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I don't think the Florida law says you can "carry" to your place of business. I think it says you can "transport" between your home and your place of business.

Be careful. I am not a lawyer, but I know enough to have learned that those who try to skirt the fringes of the law usually run afoul of the law.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:59 PM   #5
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Here is Florida Statue 790.25 which was probably written on a bad hair day. See subsection (n).

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/790.25

Quote:
(n) A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business;
IANAL, but brick and mortar is probably gonna be necessary.
Check with a competent Florida firearms attorney like Jon Gutmacher.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:09 PM   #6
MLeake
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His place of business is a vehicle. Last I checked, vehicle carry was legal in Florida. In glove box or console if the owner is not a concealed permit holder, with the option of on body if he is a permit holder.

The OP needs to check the statutes for himself.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:15 PM   #7
ScottRiqui
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The Florida statues regarding vehicle carry specify a "private conveyance". Here, we have a case where the "place of business" is a vehicle, but it's not a "private" vehicle if it's being used for a business (and this is likely still the case even if he owns the ice cream truck himself).

This is definitely something for a lawyer.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:28 PM   #8
stephen426
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Spunky,

Cough up the $50 or so and take the concealed weapons course at the next gun show. Then pay the $112 for the concealed weapons permit. The license is now valid for 7 years!

Quote:
790.25 Lawful Ownership, Possession, and Use of Firearms and Other Weapons
(5) Possession in Private Conveyance.--Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012.
The securely encased part usually means in the glove box or center console. I have heard some police officers say it must also be in a snapped holster or zippered bag. Nothing in the statutes quoted above indicate that. If you are legally able to get a concealed weapons permit, I strongly suggest you just go that route.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:53 PM   #9
MLeake
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ScottRiqui, the interior of most ice cream trucks would not be accessible to patrons.

OTOH, I won't argue against asking a lawyer.
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Old January 26, 2013, 10:59 PM   #10
ScottRiqui
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Whether or not patrons can access the interior isn't the potential issue that concerns me. I'm concerned because:

1) The Florida statues quoted so far regarding vehicle carry have only talked about private conveyances, and an ice cream truck might not qualify, regardless of whether the OP is the owner or not.

2) The statutes allow for carry (even concealed) without a permit in a place of business, but I'm not positive that would apply when the place of business is a vehicle. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but that's the point that concerns me the most.
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Old January 26, 2013, 11:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
2) The statutes allow for carry (even concealed) without a permit in a place of business, but I'm not positive that would apply when the place of business is a vehicle. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but that's the point that concerns me the most.
Right it is not spelled out in 790.25 (n). Therefore ambiguous and bad hair. Definitely need Legal on this baby.
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Old January 26, 2013, 11:24 PM   #12
stephen426
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Guys... forget going legal with this. It will cost a lot less to just get the darn permit! After he gets his permit, it will be a non-issue. He can then carry it pretty much where ever he darn well pleases.
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Old January 26, 2013, 11:46 PM   #13
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That is also true, and the process is not overly difficult. Fingerprinting at the Sheriff's Department; proof of training (Florida approved course or DD-214, though I suggest taking the class just to learn Florida's carry and self defense rules); an application form and a fee. Took about three weeks in 2007; not sure how long it takes now, as I no longer live in Florida.
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Old January 27, 2013, 12:23 AM   #14
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Maybe the man has a reason for not getting or maybe not being able to get the permit. Just sayin'.

Speak,Spunky!
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Old January 27, 2013, 08:32 AM   #15
spunky
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Ok thanks everyone. There is a gun show in Palmetto today where I can take the class and start the process to get my permit. I think I may still ask a friend of mine who is with the police department. The statutes do not clarify on this. I think that I probably could go ahead and carry, and use this as a defense if I got charged. This is one of those "gray areas" my teacher in a business law class I took in college was talking about. I really do nrot want to be arrested or pay for an attorney just to find out. I am a woman and I have been working this truck without a gun for 10 years now. I did have to mace someone once.Thanks.
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Old January 27, 2013, 12:20 PM   #16
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Thank you,spunky. I hope you start the permit process. Once acquired,that will eliminate the gray area. Running an ice cream truck can be a risky business as we know.

Having the means to protect yourself and without legal issues should be a large positive. Good luck!
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:10 PM   #17
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky
I think I may still ask a friend of mine who is with the police department. The statutes do not clarify on this. I think that I probably could go ahead and carry, and use this as a defense if I got charged.
A police officer would the LAST person you should ask. Police officers are not especially knowledgeable about laws, especially laws they don't write tickets for every day. In my home state, I had a police captain (the nephew of the woman I was dating at the time, so he wasn't trying to shine me) tell me it was perfectly legal for me to transport a handgun to shooting range with no permit.

Turns out, in my home state that is 100 percent wrong. Doing so is a felony offense.

I have since obtained my permit. When I encounter police officers at the range, I sometimes test them while chatting. Had two officers from the nearby city tell me that it's illegal to open carry in this state, even with a permit.

Wrong again.

Go ahead and ask a cop but, if you do, you should proceed on the basis that what he tells you will most likely be wrong. If he tells you that what you want to do is legal, you should absolutely assume he is wrong unless you get independent confirmation from an attorney whom you are paying to give you solid advice.

Or you could go ahead and do what you propose. If you get arrested and charged, you can certainly use your interpretation of what even you acknowledge as a gray area in the law as a defense. You can also lose your case based on that defense and go to prison. Is it REALLY worth the risk?
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Old January 27, 2013, 01:33 PM   #18
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Florida law requires a handgun in a conveyance to be "encased"...

It has been determined that encased means in an encasement which may be a glove box, console, gun case or holster...

It does not have to be in a "compartment" at all...

in fact, it can be anywhere in the vehicle (so long as out of sight to the passerby) such as under the seat, between the seat and console or other seat as long as it is in a case or holster...

It can be in any state of readiness you desire up to and including loaded, round chambered, not on safety etc...

The limit of a CCW permit is that if the person is not a permit holder, he/she may not have the firearm "on the person"...

As for whether or not the vehicle is private or business... i do not know that part... I do know that many MANY years ago, i was in violation when I had my mossberg in my dump truck but I think that was a D.O.T. commercial vehicle regulation rather than a florida statute...

Brent
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:55 PM   #19
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My crazy uncle Larry, from Poxtacalihatcheewixum Fl., made one of those 4 sided cardboard cutouts of his truck (painted too) and put some straps to go over his shoulders. Everywhere he goes, he is in his truck.

Just kidding, as if you didn't know, to lighten it up on a Sunday nite.

Only thing I know to do is check with the state. ????
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Old January 27, 2013, 08:55 PM   #20
wayneinFL
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If you own a gun in Florida, this is a good book to have.

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/

If you buy the book and have a question, Jon Gutmacher is very good about answering it for free. He probably knows more about firearms laws in Florida than anyone else you would want to contact.

If the vehicle is a private vehicle, not for hire, like a taxi or limo, owned by you, driven by you, it can be securely encased anywhere in the vehicle, but not on your person, unless you have a permit.

Quote:
790.001(17) “Securely encased” means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access.
But be very careful about this. While this means that you could keep a handgun under the counter in a thumb break holster, you may run into a police officer who may disagree. A similar ssituation happened to one of the guys on Florida Shooters Network a few years ago, and while he was in the right, it cost him over $7000 to clear his name.

Glad you're getting the permit. That way it's on you. Not only is it safer legally, but you're safer if you step out of the truck to get lunch, get gas, or check for a flat.
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Old January 27, 2013, 09:01 PM   #21
RamItOne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Florida Department of Agriculture site (no idea why, but they handle concealed weapon issues in Florida).
They also regulate the automotive repair industry.

Maybe it was like a key party in the 70s


I would say go with getting a CCW, the class/test in florida is pathetically easy
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Old January 27, 2013, 11:11 PM   #22
CUBAN REDNECK
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Spunky,

Avoid the hassles, even if you are correct. Get a FL CCW permit, then this question is a moot point. One way or the other you're gonna have to pay.
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Old January 28, 2013, 09:05 AM   #23
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Quote:
Florida Department of Agriculture site (no idea why, but they handle concealed weapon issues in Florida).
Because when the law was enacted, they were the only licensing agency in the state that had the built-in capacity to handle issuing the permits.
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Old January 28, 2013, 10:53 AM   #24
Don P
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Right it is not spelled out in 790.25 (n). Therefore ambiguous and bad hair. Definitely need Legal on this baby.
It is spelled out here, F.S.790.25(3)(n) and case law, State v Anton, 700 So. 2d 743 (Fla. 2DCA 1977)
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Old January 28, 2013, 11:04 AM   #25
ScottRiqui
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Quote:
It is spelled out here, F.S.790.25(3)(n) and case law, State v Anton, 700 So. 2d 743 (Fla. 2DCA 1977)
The statute you quote is the same one we've been talking about already. Although it authorizes unlicensed concealed carry in a place of business, I'm concerned whether the fact that the "place of business" is also a vehicle might add some legal complexity to the issue.

As for State v. Anton, as far as I can tell, that ruling simply expanded the "place of business" definition to include "buildings and structures thereon". That doesn't directly address the "vehicle as a 'place of business'" issue either.

Last edited by ScottRiqui; January 28, 2013 at 11:15 AM.
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