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Old January 17, 2013, 10:46 PM   #1
dtaski
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Private restaurant posting a no guns permitted sign

Guys,

I live in PA and had dinner tonight in a major national chain restaurant. They had a sign posted on the door stating,

XYZ , Inc
Bans guns on these premises.

Any idea what I could be charged with if I'm caught carrying concealed ? (with a legal CCW permit )
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Old January 17, 2013, 10:53 PM   #2
Kframe
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It varies state by state. In MN it is simple trespass IF you refuse to leave after being spotted carrying.

I don't know about PA. Maybe check here --> PA Statutes
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Old January 17, 2013, 10:54 PM   #3
Al Norris
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Unless the law in PA gives legal weight to such signs, the only thing that can be done (should the management see your concealed firearm (huh???), would be to ask you to leave. Failure to leave when asked may result in trespass charges.
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Old January 17, 2013, 10:54 PM   #4
musher
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Depends on the laws of your state.

If you have a CCW, you should know whether you have legal obligations with respect to posted areas. You should review the relevant statutes/regulations.

In any case, if you are caught and refuse to leave when asked, you can be charged with trespass.

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Old January 17, 2013, 10:56 PM   #5
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Why would anyone wish to support a resturant that posted such a sign?
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Old January 17, 2013, 10:58 PM   #6
MLeake
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According to handgunlaw.us there is no force of law in Pennsylvania unless the sign is posted in a place where Pennsylvania law would make carry illegal, anyway. If asked to leave, you must, or I would assume you could be charged with trespassing (how it is in Missouri).

BUT you should check your state's statutes, straight from the horse's mouth.
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Old January 17, 2013, 11:03 PM   #7
Willie Sutton
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Why would anyone wish to support a resturant that posted such a sign?


^^^ what he said.

Why worry? Walk down the street and eat where you are welcome.

After dropping off a business card telling them why you are not spending money there, of course.



Willie

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Old January 17, 2013, 11:29 PM   #8
sigcurious
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Quote:
Why would anyone wish to support a resturant that posted such a sign?
Slightly unique situation, but living in Vegas almost all of the casinos are posted(no force of law). Most of the movie theaters are on casino properties, best steak I've found in town is on a casino property, events, etc.
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Old January 17, 2013, 11:35 PM   #9
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I am of the opinion that No guns, no money, is the proper response. Be sure to let management know why you are not spending your money with them...

BTW: Most major national food chains follow the laws of the state they are in. Sometimes it takes a letter to corporate to correct a local practice that is not in line with that corporate practice.
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Old January 17, 2013, 11:40 PM   #10
iraiam
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If I see one of those signs, I don't enter wether I'm armed or not. That's their policy and they are entitled to it, but I am also entitled to take my business elsewhere, which I will do every time.
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Old January 17, 2013, 11:41 PM   #11
roashooter
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when a local resturant put up new sign... "no guns"....my wife and I were seated....and I asked in friendly manner...."May I speak to the manager?"

The manager appeared shortly...he was someone I had seen befor...and he plesantly asked what he could do for me.

I inquired about the new "No guns" sign at the front door.

He said he thought it was a good idea...reflecting the events in the news as of late.

I looked him straight in the eye...and made the comment........"So if a crazy individual storms in here while we are having dinner...you will gaurentee our safety?"

He kinda stammered a bit....said it would not take that long for the police to arrive.......he was finishing his sentance as I stood...my wife stood...I handed him three cents....told him it was all the business he deserved from me....we would take our money to another establishment...

the table next to us....got up and left with us...
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Old January 18, 2013, 05:52 PM   #12
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You really have to wonder what the people who put up those sign have been smoking. I mean ... seriously. The shooter at the Sandy Hook school shot out the glass to gain entry through a locked entrance door -- and these mental midgets think a sign is going to somehow be a magic talisman that will stop a gunman in his tracks at the door?

The impossibility of this succeeding is so blatantly obvious that it boggles the mind to consider that these people actually ... believe ... it.
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Old January 18, 2013, 05:56 PM   #13
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Respect their right not to want firearms on their premises. And go somewhere else.
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Old January 18, 2013, 06:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
You really have to wonder what the people who put up those sign have been smoking. I mean ... seriously. The shooter at the Sandy Hook school shot out the glass to gain entry through a locked entrance door -- and these mental midgets think a sign is going to somehow be a magic talisman that will stop a gunman in his tracks at the door?
Of course not. They know that such a sign won't stop such people. They are trying to stop the idiot gun owns who have a need to fiddle with their guns while out and about. You know the ones, right? We discuss them here from time to time. They are the ones with guns that go off while standing in line, while in a seat in a movie theater, while standing at the checkout at Walmart in AZ, or that shoot a toilet in an eatery in Utah.

If they thought such signs would stop bad guys, then they would just put up a no robbery sign or no bad guy, but they don't do that.

Examples...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...charge+walmart

This next guy hurt himself, a toilet, and a woman.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/19...jr-restaurant/

http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/201...n-two-injured/

This guy managed to hurt a total of 4 people...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/t...llas-wal-mart/

So folks think that by not allowing guns, the chances of something going wrong are reduced. Never mind they they occur at an extraordinarily small fraction amount of the time, even compared to bad guys robbing the place.
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; January 18, 2013 at 06:42 PM.
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Old January 18, 2013, 07:17 PM   #15
honkytonkrolltide
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I agree with everyone that said they don't give these places their business. This has been a practice of mine all my life. I can remember as a kid, walking in somewhere with my dad and immediately turning around at the door. I was maybe six, I asked him what we were doing and he calmly said, "if I can't protect myself or you (me) in this place then I'm not giving them a dime". I guess that resonated, and it's been my practice ever since. I've been carrying since I was 21 and have yet to be asked to leave a "non-posted" establishment. I'm from Tennessee and allowed to open carry there, and I'm hardly given a second glance.
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Old January 18, 2013, 07:25 PM   #16
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Of course not. They know that such a sign won't stop such people. They are trying to stop the idiot gun owns who have a need to fiddle with their guns while out and about. You know the ones, right? We discuss them here from time to time. They are the ones with guns that go off while standing in line, while in a seat in a movie theater, while standing at the checkout at Walmart in AZ, or that shoot a toilet in an eatery in Utah.

If they thought such signs would stop bad guys, then they would just put up a no robbery sign or no bad guy, but they don't do that.
I disagree. I don't think restaurant and theater owners who aren't "gunnies" are even aware of such incidents. I think they actually believe that putting up a "No guns allowed" sign will somehow prevent robbers with guns from entering their premises.
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Old January 18, 2013, 08:05 PM   #17
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Just remember to leave when asked. It may not be a simple Misdemeanor Trespassing if you even stay to argue and you are carrying. It would be an "armed" Trespassing in Florida and a Felony violation. Once a person of authority asks you to leave you have to exit. Delaying exiting to talk is the trespassing part.
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Old January 18, 2013, 11:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Unless the law in PA gives legal weight to such signs, the only thing that can be done (should the management see your concealed firearm (huh???), would be to ask you to leave. Failure to leave when asked may result in trespass charges.
If you enter such a place and don't leave when ask you may be charged with trespass. If you enter suh a place that you know posted. You may be charged with defiant trespass, a more serious offense.


A good place to look for information on PA gun laws is pafoa.org.
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Old January 19, 2013, 08:45 AM   #19
Qtiphky
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Sign=No Business from me

If I see a sign, I do not patronize them. There are enough places that I need to avoid due to federal law, that entering an establishment by choice with a sign that says no one in here is armed and ready to defend themselves, to me, just doesn't seem logical. Banks, federal buildings, schools, hospitals, -there are plenty of other restaurants or whatever that will not question my rights to carry. Those other places are inconvenient to disarm and leave it in the vehicle, I don't need another one.
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Old January 19, 2013, 09:50 AM   #20
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I disagree. I don't think restaurant and theater owners who aren't "gunnies" are even aware of such incidents. I think they actually believe that putting up a "No guns allowed" sign will somehow prevent robbers with guns from entering their premises.
I think this is accurate, but it is also an innate fear of having any guns present whatsoever. These people are sure that there is an element of danger in just having them around.
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Old January 19, 2013, 12:46 PM   #21
Double Naught Spy
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Then why don't they put up "No robberies allowed" signs? Guns are not the only tools used for robberies, LOL.
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Old January 19, 2013, 01:26 PM   #22
Vanya
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By and large, business owners aren't dumb. They know the signs aren't going to prevent them from being robbed. The main reason for posting such signs: liability... liability... liability.

They're not keen on being sued in the event one of those gun-fiddling fools comes in, has a negligent discharge, and injures someone. Also, many businesses -- banks, for example -- have a standard policy that employees are not to resist if they are robbed: they'd much rather the tellers just hand over the money than get caught in the middle of a gunfight. There are both liability and workers' comp. concerns there... (actually in both those cases) -- so they'd rather not have armed customers who may want to play hero in such a situation. Not everyone with a concealed carry permit necessarily has training in using deadly force in such situations, so from the point of view of a business, it's a valid concern. (As far as I'm aware, in most jurisdictions even off-duty police officers are taught not to intervene with force in such situations -- and they do have training.)

Robbery is what they're concerned about -- that's more likely by far than some sort of rampage shooting. They're just playing the odds on keeping their employees safe, and their own exposure as low as possible: if it's just a matter of money, hand it over and write it off.

Just respect the sign and move on.
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Old January 19, 2013, 01:40 PM   #23
Mike Irwin
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What restaurant, please?

Why not identify such a location so people like me, who are from central Pennsylvania and are frequently back can avoid it?
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Old January 19, 2013, 05:23 PM   #24
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I don't understand the hostility toward these signs. It's just a private citizen asking you to respect his wishes. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to carry everywhere I go. But if a friend or family member asks me not to carry, or smoke, or swear in their home, I don't.

Of course I also completely support going elsewhere if you don't agree with those wishes. But I see no problem with the signs on private property.
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Old January 19, 2013, 08:38 PM   #25
WyMark
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Quote:
Of course not. They know that such a sign won't stop such people. They are trying to stop the idiot gun owns who have a need to fiddle with their guns while out and about. You know the ones, right? We discuss them here from time to time. They are the ones with guns that go off while standing in line, while in a seat in a movie theater, while standing at the checkout at Walmart in AZ, or that shoot a toilet in an eatery in Utah.

If they thought such signs would stop bad guys, then they would just put up a no robbery sign or no bad guy, but they don't do that.

Examples...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...charge+walmart

This next guy hurt himself, a toilet, and a woman.
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/19...jr-restaurant/

http://www.clarksvilleonline.com/201...n-two-injured/

This guy managed to hurt a total of 4 people...
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/07/24/t...llas-wal-mart/

So folks think that by not allowing guns, the chances of something going wrong are reduced. Never mind they they occur at an extraordinarily small fraction amount of the time, even compared to bad guys robbing the place.
And this one, in a local Starbucks:
http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/...l_12-28-11.txt


I'm probably twice as likely to be shot by an idiot than by a bad guy.

I don't understand the issue with the signs either, it's private property and if they don't want guns on it then that's their business. I have the choice of either leaving my gun outside or going elsewhere.

This has been discussed here before, and I still believe that your property rights trump my 2A rights every time.

P.S. - This one too, from today:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...at_medina.html

And this, also today:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,6098861.story

If you take your gun to a gun show to sell, and you're too stupid to clear it before you go in, then maybe you don't need to own guns after all. In fact that's the one gun control measure I could really get behind: an IQ test.

Last edited by WyMark; January 19, 2013 at 08:46 PM.
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