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Old January 30, 2013, 09:42 AM   #26
603Country
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Put the disagreement on pause while I go make some popcorn. I'll be right back.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:54 AM   #27
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"If Lee Collet dies are so darned good, how come none of the match winning and record setting folks use them? Even the benchresters finally learned not too long ago that full length sizing their fired cases makes the bullets in their necks shoot straighter. They finally gave up on neck sized cases because neck only sizing dies do not hold the case body in line with the case neck sizing part of the die during the sizing process."

Rational perspective matters and that has none.

Your estotoric info is true so far as it goes but it doen't go anywhere for 99.9% percent of reloaders shooters and no new guys at all. The people you cite don't use the factory rifles we use, they ALL have custom crafted rifles and scopes costing well into the thousands of dollars. They shoot handmade bullets, not what we buy off the shelf. The competitions they enter will often be won by tiny fractions of an inch that are meaningless anywhere else. Little of what they have to do to win by .005 MOA means a thing to the rest of us so posting as if it does is no help to anyone, even them, because they already know what will be needed to win.

Straight cartridges shoot better for all of us. It's much easier for the vast majority of us to obtain straight case necks with a near ideal inside diameter with Lee's collet neck die; that's all there is to it.

Forget the popcorn, it's all ready over.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:13 AM   #28
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Not to stop the back and forth, but:

Quote:
I would go with 4 dies set carbide dies for pistol. They just work a lot better.
You can use a three die set just like a four die set. Don't set the die to crimp when seating. After seating all you bullets, remove the seater plug, adjust the die to your prefered crimp and crimp all your new rounds. Easy, saves you from buying the extra die, and ona single stage press, only costs you a few minutes of set up time.

OK, back at it!
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:19 PM   #29
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Very few, if any highpower position shooters use custom dies matched to their chambers. They've been using over the counter commercial full length sizing dies to shoot benchrest record group sizes in SAAMI spec'd chambers since the 1960's. Usually, they would lap the sizing die's neck out so expander balls weren't used; today, full bushing dies do the same thing just as well. And all sorts of presses have been used; their make and model has virtually zero effect on the quality of the ammo they reload; some are just easier than others to use.

As good commercial match ammo as well as the best lots of military match ammo will shoot under 3/8ths inch at 100 yards and under 5 inches at 600, all your reloading tools and techniques need not make ammo any better than those high speed mass producing machines make with brand spankin' new cases, metered powder charges, bullet runout up to 3 or 4 thousandths and put in a variety of chambers several thousandths larger in diameter than the cases diameters. Therefore, if you cannot shoot your rifle with such ammo that well, either your or the rifle needs some adjustment or a part or two replaced. The problem's not the ammo.

The above aside, if one doesn't properly test their reloads, any combination of tools, procedures and shooter skill may well end up shooting the smallest group that's used as the ammo's accuracy. No wonder there's so many different opinions on what's best. In contrast are the top competitors; they know there's a few good tools and methods that work well; none of which involve neck only sizing.
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:29 PM   #30
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There's several false statements in the following:
Quote:
Your estotoric info is true so far as it goes but it doen't go anywhere for 99.9% percent of reloaders shooters and no new guys at all. The people you cite don't use the factory rifles we use, they ALL have custom crafted rifles and scopes costing well into the thousands of dollars. They shoot handmade bullets, not what we buy off the shelf. The competitions they enter will often be won by tiny fractions of an inch that are meaningless anywhere else. Little of what they have to do to win by .005 MOA means a thing to the rest of us so posting as if it does is no help to anyone, even them, because they already know what will be needed to win.
Especially this one:
Quote:
Straight cartridges shoot better for all of us. It's much easier for the vast majority of us to obtain straight case necks with a near ideal inside diameter with Lee's collet neck die; that's all there is to it.
Use a full bushing die correctly and a Lee collet neck die on fired cases, then make your own neck runout measurements. Do it right or you'll get false numbers; most folks and gauges measure runout the wrong way. If you know how and understand how a rimless bottleneck round fits the chamber when its fired, you'll know and understand why full length bushing dies are better.

Besides, what's wrong with feeding your barrel the best reloads possible?
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:52 PM   #31
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I use Dillon dies.. theyre the best. Theyre usually $60ish for pistol die sets in carbide and then the rifle dies are the same for steel and $150ish for carbide.. cant beat that in my humble yet extremely accurate opinion.

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Old January 30, 2013, 05:43 PM   #32
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Very few, if any highpower position shooters use custom dies matched to their chambers. They've been using over the counter commercial full length sizing dies to shoot benchrest record group sizes in SAAMI spec'd chambers since the 1960's.
Really? I'd like to see someone show up with a high power rig and totally own a benchrest match.

That would be something to see.

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Old January 30, 2013, 06:43 PM   #33
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Jimro would like to see someone show up with a high power rig and totally own a benchrest match.

I would like to see someone show up with a benchrest rig and totally own a high power match; especially one that only allows metallic sights, no scope. Would be great to see a benchrest rig shot from standing and from sitting or prone in a rapid fire match with metallic sights; one at the muzzle end and the other at the back end of the receiver.

With both types properly tested for accuracy past 300 yards, the smallest many-shot groups I know of have come from high power match rifles.
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Old January 30, 2013, 08:56 PM   #34
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I have Lee dies in two pistol calibers. I have RCBS, Lyman, and Hornady for the other nine calibers. Best bang for my buck is RCBS. I didn't have to special order my two wildcats, either.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:30 PM   #35
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Bart B.

I'd like to see that too. Most benchrest rigs are also single shot. That would be quite the handicap during the rapid strings.

But I don't see high power shooters owning benchrest comps any time soon. Especially not service rifle competitors. Maybe a tube gun shooter could do it...

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Old January 30, 2013, 10:48 PM   #36
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Jimro, my comments are made regarding the basic accuracy of high power match rifles and their ammo, not how accurate they shoot in competition. One type's fired in free recoil resting on supports with no movement whatsoever virtually untouched by humans and the other is totally hand held subject to all the variables in human beings trying to hold perfectly still but never do. Tested in free recoil like benchrifles are used, match rifles are equal to the BR rigs and some have shot test groups decades ago, as well as recently, smaller than current benchrest aggregate groups.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:03 PM   #37
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I have dies by Hornady,Lee,Lyman,Redding and RCBS. For me the Lee dies work as well as the others.
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Old January 31, 2013, 07:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
Tested in free recoil like benchrifles are used, match rifles are equal to the BR rigs and some have shot test groups decades ago, as well as recently, smaller than current benchrest aggregate groups.
The very best group from a rifle is not an indicator of performance, as you have written before. The largest group is the best indicator of performance.

What it seems like you are claiming is that a match rifle is capable of 0.1 MOA precision, using standard FL resizing dies to load ammo, as long as you have a benchrest system to do the shooting.

However, you also wrote that Sierra tests each batch of bullets and routinely gets .25 MOA from their test barrels, and recommend their reloading methods.

So why is it that Sierra can't get benchrest precision from their test barrels and High Power match rifles can?

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Old January 31, 2013, 09:39 AM   #39
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What I'm claiming is a match rifle will shoot just as accurate as a benchrest rifle and sometimes better.

At 100 yards, sub .1 MOA to .3 MOA, the range of individual groups in a BR aggregate.

At 600 yards, .3 MOA to .6 MOA, individual group spread in 600 yd. BR aggregates.

At 1000 yards, .4 MOA to .7 MOA, same thing with LR BR aggs.

Typically, BR agg's for group include the largest group which is often half again (or more) larger than the average size of all groups.

Of course, once in a while either of these rifle types will put 5 shots into the smallest group they've ever fired. But rarely do they ever shoot one smaller; all the rest are larger.

If you wanna talk smallest, no BR rig has ever shot a dozen or so consecutive 10-shot groups in a match at 600 yards all under 1.5 inches as far as I can find out. But a match rifle tested in free recoil has shot better and the largest group at 1.5 inch, smallest was about .7 inch. Not too shabby for an old pre-'64 Win. 70 with a Hart barrel and full length sized cases in a SAAMI spec size chamber. The record aggs for 600 yard BR can bee seen online; they're a lot bigger.

Having seen some of Sierra's test groups in the .1 MOA range with 30 caliber 168's, they will shoot that well from full length sized cases from SAAMI spec chambers; no tight necks.

Most interesting thing about benchrest agg's is, unless you are at the match and see the group sizes posted for aggregate matches, you'll probably never learn what the biggest one's size is. BR folks must have a binding legal contract that prohibits them from telling/showing someone what the worst group in an agg was. I've tried getting that info from BR agg record holders and they will not, repeat - will not tell me the size of their biggest group. All they want to talk about is the average and the smallest one.
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Old January 31, 2013, 09:42 AM   #40
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Save your money. Go with Lee dies. They are as good as ANY dies out there!
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:25 AM   #41
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Bart B.

How about the 100 yard line? http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-nbrsa-record/

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Old January 31, 2013, 10:37 AM   #42
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Jim and Bart are not being good boys by taking over this thread.
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Old January 31, 2013, 11:16 AM   #43
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rowiggy, I understand your question, “I notice that every manufacturer has their standard die set along with a much more expensive "Competition/Match/Gold/etc...." back to standard die set, I have seating dies only, I do not have the full length sizing dies "Competition/Match/Gold/etc.., expensive? yes, the 30/06 Gold Medal seating die can also seat 308 W and 8mm06 with a small investment in an extended shell holder and bullet guide. Benefits? The guide centers the case with the bullet, bulging the shoulder of the case when seating bullets is eliminated.

Expensive full length bushing dies with bushings at $30.00 each for both Redding and RCBS dies, rather than spend the money I had rather spend the time on fundamentals as in learning to use the press, a friend called and informed me he was told his chambers in his bench rest rifles were too large in diameter, having an inquiring mind I questioned the answer. I ask him about the accuracy of his bench rest type rifles, his answer was “One hole groups, all of them shoot one hole groups” I suggested he stay off the Internet, his response, “I do not have a computer”. Then I suggested he learn to smile and nod his head approvingly when he is talking to ‘Internet reloaders’ and learn to say ‘Fantastic, simple fantastic’. Why fantastic? Responding with ‘fantastic’? There is a chance someone could be lead to believe you attended finishing school. Anyhow, I boxed up a few dies and went for a visit. We reduced the difference in diameter between the neck of his chamber and case neck .006”, for our efforts do you think his one hole groups will become 1/2 hole groups? No! I do wish I had taken some case lube, I am not allowed to disagree with his use of certain case lubes, forming his cases with his choice of one of three lubes was a work out for his A2 RCBS press.

“but I have no intentions of shooting competition or making 1000yd shots. I do however want to have the confidence in my ammo to take a 300-400yd shot on a deer”. Back to all you ‘gotta’ do is etc..

I have two 300 Win mags, One will accomplish the 400 yard shot with new factor Federal Gold Medal ammo, the other, a Winchester Model 70 will not group under 5” at 100 years with the same ammo, fired cases from the more accurate rifle will chamber in the Winchester Model 70, fired cases from the Model 70 can not be sized with my dies without fear of rendering the dies scrap. To those that suggest I should purchase a collet die I respond with “fantastic”, If the case was full length sized by what ever means the chamber is still to large in diameter. I did ask Winchester for a set of dies that fit their chamber, In the beginning I wanted a chamber that fit my dies.

Then I have a different kind of rifle, $120.00, it is ugly, my kind of ugly, 12 boxes of reloads with 12 different combinations of cases, powder, bullets. cases? New, military, commercial R-P, fired etc.., all full length sized, The chamber was/is go-gage length. None of the groups opened up, all groups could be covered with a quarter, some groups shared the same hole. Then there was heat, I allowed the rifle to cool, took most of the day, I know, some think waiting for the rifle to cool could lead to an anxiety attack, I took 10 rifles, I was not bored.

I have no ideal why it is necessary to recommend someone “I have been reloading for just a few months” that has been reloading for a few months, suddenly go into a dead run. I suggest practice, practice practice, and remember, practice is said to make perfect “fantastic”. I believe correct practice makes perfect, practice ‘it’ wrong you could get it wrong every time. Take your time.

Trigger time, barrel time, lock time? Time is a factor.

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Old January 31, 2013, 11:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
I am looking for a die set that will allow me to make accurate rounds, but I have no intentions of shooting competition or making 1000yd shots. I do however want to have the confidence in my ammo to take a 300-400yd shot on a deer.

I am reloading on a Forster press and am leaning towards Forster or Redding 3 die sets. Forster's set is $156, with their high end an extra $100. Redding's standard set is $110 with their Type S Match Bushing set going for $267 + $36 per bushing.

Is there enough of a difference in accuracy gained from the high end sets to warrant the extra cost when it comes to the hunting/recreational/range shooting that I do. Thanks in advance for any responses.
As stated, the OP has seemed to drop out of the conversation. Next, my only question is this, is the OP capable of matching the accuracy of his rifle with his shooting skills capabilities?
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Old January 31, 2013, 12:41 PM   #45
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Jimro, Lake City arsenal's match ammo has shot .022 MOA (about 1/7th inch) five-shot groups at 600 yards. Not all the time nor even once in a while; maybe two or three times in their history. Such groups are possible with any rifle if one shoots enough of them to produce one. That's simple statistics. It's how often they occur that's what's worthwhile for accuracy claims.

One could say any rifle shoots zero MOA groups all the time and that would be a true statement. If they're measured at the muzzle.
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Old January 31, 2013, 01:19 PM   #46
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That's intersting, normally arsenal match ammo is good for 3/4 to 1.5 MOA from a sniper or match grade service rifle. Even Mk262 acceptance standard is 2 MOA, although groups are usually around 1.3 MOA from the test rigs over a 50 shot group (looking at Crane's lot acceptance data they have never had a lot of Mk262 shoot sub MOA). Mk316 ammo has the same acceptance standards, 2 MOA.

Which is an accuracy standard easily duplicated even with standard dies.

If you can't get MOA or tighter from standard dies, I doubt the problem is the dies.

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Old February 1, 2013, 08:39 AM   #47
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I agree with you on the accuracy that arsenal match ammo has. Lake City shoots many dozens (couple hundred) shots per test group, then calculates the mean radius shot holes have from the group's center. 30 caliber and 7.62 NATO match ammo specs are mean radius has to be no larger than 3.5 inches at 600 yards; that's about 10 to 11 inches extreme spread.

Over decades of shooting many thousands of rounds testing ammo lots, a couple of 5-shot strings have shot into near one-hole clusters. No way will Lake City Army Ammo Plant claim their ammo shoots 1/7th inch at 600 yards. Especially when other 5-shot strings in the same many-dozen shot test groups are over 9 inches in size.

Which is why aresenals base accuracy of small arms ammo on where all the shots go, not just the smallest cluster 5 of them go into. That's what can be counted on all the time.

Bottom line is, which shooting system (rifle, ammo & reloading tools and techniques) would your rather have regarding the size range in units of measurements for its test group sizes you produce:

* from 0.5 to 6 units neck only sizing.

* from 0.5 to 4 units proper full length sizing.

That's the typical difference between neck only and full length sizing the benchrest folks figured out.
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Old February 1, 2013, 09:57 AM   #48
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I know Hornady isn't the brand preferred by many of the old pros on this board, but that's my personal preference.

I started off with Lee, but have since moved on. Lee makes decent dies, and great dies to get into the game without breaking the bank, but they are undoubtedly the low end of the spectrum in terms of quality. That does not mean you cannot make good quality ammo with them, because they are still capable of doing just that.

RCBS, Dillon and Hornady are all about the same in terms of cost and quality. I just simply preferred the Hornady brand personally, and really like the addition of the micrometer on the seater die (if anything it makes reloading on my single stage much easier for me).

Redding and Forstner are generally considered the top end of dies, at least in production dies for the average reloader.

For what the OP is looking for, you don't need anything labelled as "competition", "match", "gold", or whatever other marketing term is on the sticker that implies a higher quality. A regular set of dies from the maker of your choice is going to be more than sufficient.
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Old February 1, 2013, 10:02 AM   #49
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Quote:
Bottom line is, which shooting system (rifle, ammo & reloading tools and techniques) would your rather have regarding the size range in units of measurements for its test group sizes you produce:

* from 0.5 to 6 units.

* from 1 to 4 units
That really depends on whether I'm a good enough shooter to tell the difference in 2 units. I am from a scoped bolt rifle with bipod and scope, I am not with a service rifle and a sling. Both weapon systems are capable of sub MOA groups, however I have no problem practicing with 1.1 MOA 5.56 ammo for my service rifle AR right now (meets the same accuracy standard as Mk262, just using a 75gr bullet instead of 77 matchking).

If I miss the ten ring, it is me, not the rifle or ammo. Of course the High Power targets are plenty generous compared to F Class.

I guess if I were shooting a Tubb2K or Stohl benchrest rig and I could hold 1/2 MOA precision I would think differently. As it is, I don't expect my service AR to ever shoot below .75 MOA with the Colt HBAR barrel it has on it right now, although I have a Krieger on the shelf waiting for this one to get worn out.

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Old February 1, 2013, 10:35 AM   #50
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I have used Lee dies for years for bolt gun ammunition. I don’t use standard dies for my match ammunition, all of which may be used in bolt rifles and gas guns. Anything that might be used in a gas gun gets sized with a small base die to get the round as close to factory dimensions as possible. Not to say that my early AR15/M1a ammunition sized with a Lee die was not accurate, but I want maximum reliable function.

When I conducted my case measurements in 223 and 308 my Lee Dies gave me case neck runouts less than 0.003”, many just at 0.001”.

However, with one Lee 30-06 sizing die, the cases are about as straight as a banana. Just awful.

I have an F class multiple category National Champion bud who has bought bushels of custom made dies, cussed at them, and now he swears by Redding dies.

Recently I loaded these cases with Lee dies. I think any 1952 mfgr hunting rifle that puts nine shots under an inch totally adequate for any and all hunting situations I will ever experience.





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