The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 25, 2013, 12:38 PM   #1
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
LEO and AR 15s

I have seen several stories recently come out as "news" that talk about a local law enforcement office arming themselves with AR 15s. I was not aware that LEOs did not have access to these weapons. Is this something new? I know they have sidearms and usually a shotgun in the trunk but is the AR not part of the armory for most forces?
mayosligo is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 12:44 PM   #2
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 2,735
I think the issue is that some departments just don’t have the money to provide one for each officer, but allow them to buy their own.
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 12:54 PM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,686
The OP is quite behind the times, no offense. Many departments have gone to carbines over shotguns for numerous reasons.

An interesting side nuance is that some areas regard the AR has politically gun incorrect even for LEOs as they are militarizing the police with weapons of war!

That's seen in the antigun cities.

That lead to the development of Rugers' 9mm and 40SW carbines - since out of favor. There was a Remington pump 223 - the reason being cops knew shotguns and were incapable of learning AR usage (duh). But it was really to be PC. Same with the Beretta 9mm and other pistol caliber carbines. NOT an EBR.

But Hairplug Joe Biden says it is to hard to use an AR for most and a double shotgun is all you need. Oh, Secret Service - turn in your P-90s - it's for JOE!
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 01:44 PM   #4
BlueTrain
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2005
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,825
Anytime you say "usually," you're usually wrong. At any rate, that is a good argument about arming the police with military weapons. Some departments even have armored cars. I realize a lot of you are either policemen or want to be but is that what you want the police to be? Do you think the police should have light machine guns? My line of thinking is that once someone says the police are on the front lines of the war on crime, who exactly do you think is seen as the enemy?
__________________
Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands!
Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag,
and return us to our own beloved homes!
Buy War Bonds.
BlueTrain is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 01:45 PM   #5
DieHard06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 213
Glenn, I am not so sure that he is behind the times. Many police departments still don't have them. The ones that do also make you qualify to use one (which I think is wise). It has been stated by some that the mentality is that these AR's were for swat teams, but that mentality is changing as the tactics for confronting a gunman in a school or other large building have changed.
DieHard06 is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 02:03 PM   #6
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,440
I don't know about NOW, but post Vietnam, and the lead up to switching to the M16A2, the Army would GIVE any ligit Police Department M16a1s.

But I don't know why, according our Vice President, double barrel shotguns are more effective as a combat weapon.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 02:13 PM   #7
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
But I don't know why, according our Vice President, double barrel shotguns are more effective as a combat weapon.
I actually saw an Iraqi soldier with one of those one time. He kept asking me for shells.

Post Vietnam should have been the start of the introduction for the AR to law enforcement. It got such a bad rap there through lies, urban legends and half truths that most departments would not adopt it.

Today there is little doubt to its reliability and effectiveness.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 02:47 PM   #8
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,427
I think the first real push to do this was the Norco shootout. After that departments started looking for Mini-14's, M16's, and AR-15's. that was about 1980.
JimDandy is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 02:57 PM   #9
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,112
I bought mine in 1990 and carried it as a patrol rifle. Never used it in that regard, but in 30 years as a cop, I've only had to use the shotgun twice. The rifle I have is the standard Bushmaster XM15E2, the clone of the A2 I carried in the Army. When the deputies in our agency by an AR, they make us go thru a 1-day carbine course, then qualify with it annually.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 03:00 PM   #10
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 715
At least here in NC, some departments do either issue them to each officer, or as a pool "rifle" to a group of officers. Those that agencies that dont issue them (and some that do also) allow personally owned rifles to be carried in the vehicle, once the officer qualifies with the rifle.

There is still a rifle loan program for law enforcement agencies to get military m16's of various vintage. Unsure what is currently available though. Last few I saw were M16A1's.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 03:58 PM   #11
Shotgun693
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2011
Location: Poteet, Texas
Posts: 959
I worked in Galveston Co Texas. I often carried an AR, carried for a couple of years an HK 91 and for a short bit a Garand. I always had a 12ga.
In San Antonio I was stunned at how under armed the Police were, within the 5 sections the city was divided into, one Officer per shift 'could' carry a shotgun and one Officer a shift 'could' carry an AR. They had SWAT but the response time was no better than anywhere else.
Shotgun693 is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 05:13 PM   #12
breakingcontact
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2012
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 736
Its part of the militarization of police departments. I suppose with some of the smaller of less funded ones seeing the public scrambling to buy ARs, they want them too.
breakingcontact is offline  
Old January 25, 2013, 06:23 PM   #13
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,254
I see it this way:

Bad guys get guns.
Cops want AR's because bad guys have guns.
Good guys want an AR's because bad guys have guns and Cops have AR's!

Simple.
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 11:03 AM   #14
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
My issue was really with the media. Their messaging as that in the wake of Sandy Hook, police departments were were "now" arming themselves in response. I had thought a number of departments would have already had them and it was mostly hype.
mayosligo is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 12:18 PM   #15
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
Its part of the militarization of police departments. I suppose with some of the smaller of less funded ones seeing the public scrambling to buy ARs, they want them too.



A really new trend, isn't it?


Sort of like Thompsons in the the 1930's?


Bad guys bought them.

then:

Cops bought them.

then:

Public bought them.

and:

NFA was the result....
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 02:34 PM   #16
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,424
No, only now, the public had them, then the bad guys, then the cops.

There seemed to be a push after North Hollywood, but in the DFW area, the real push didn't seem to come until after their own dealings with full auto wielding bad guys a few years later.

This is one segment of the event...

WARNING - Foul language
http://www.break.com/usercontent/200...ine-gun-368204

Dallas OK'd AR15 patrol rifles later that year, IIRC, largely in response to this.
http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...ice-Outgunned/
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 03:38 PM   #17
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,422
Another key fact to remember in regards to the NFA, it was passed after Prohibition had been repealed.

I've often read that it was passed merely to give a bunch of soon to be out of work Treasury Agents something to do.

Also, from my readings, most of the Thompsons and BARs used by the bad guys during the "Roaring '20s" were stolen from police stations and National Guard armories.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 08:34 PM   #18
Shotgun693
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2011
Location: Poteet, Texas
Posts: 959
In order to 'get' 'assault rifle:

Citizens, save up the money, buy what you want.
Bad guys, steal or dope deal or pimp to get some money, steal or have a 'Straw Man' buy what you want.
Big City Cops, go to your Administrator and convince him you need an assault rifle, may or may not happen. Chief requests funds to buy assault rifles from council, may or may not happen. Test several brands and makes, get the brand/make the head of testing team will soon be working for. Purchase assault rifles. Administrator will now issue these to a limited number of Officers who will go through hundreds of hours of training. When needed, an Officer with 'The Assault Rifle' will drive across town to the location hopefully getting there before anything happens.
Small town Rural Deputies, use credit card buy whats on sell OR if there is one that has been seized talk the Chief into letting you carry that one, maybe.
Shotgun693 is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 10:20 PM   #19
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 715
Does anyone here have a clue about when LE started carrying repeating rifles/carbines?

I know the topic of this thread is about AR-15's, but when I was a kid back in the late 70's and into the 80's before entering LE, I remember alot of guys carrying various repeating type rifles...From bolt action, lever action, to a few semi-auto's, of various vintage and style....I would say that until the last 10 or so years there was really no "standard" (meaning no one rifle/carbine that was totally popular accross the board)

The idea of LE carrying a rifle/carbine in their vehicle or on their "horse" goes back to the late 1800's probably in some form or fashion. At least I remember when I was a kid, tons of retired law enforcement talked of having a lever action, which at the time, would equate to the AR-15 now in popularity probably. I guess someone should have warned them about the "militarization of law enforcement" since they had rifles/carbines.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 10:24 PM   #20
SPEMack618
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2010
Location: Central Georgia
Posts: 1,422
My Great-Grandpa carried the "assault weapon" of his day when he was the neighboring county's sheriff in the early 1930s.

He carried a Winchester Model 1907 in .351 WSL.

Intermediate caliber, semi-automatic, detachable magazine.

He also carried a shotgun, but that was more so he could stop and shoot at birds as the mood struck him.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"Had King Kong showed up in Texas, Frank Hamer would have taken him down with his Model 8 in .35 Remington...well, he was kind of big, so maybe his BAR"
SPEMack618 is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 10:28 PM   #21
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 715
SPEMack618,

Good point. Many folks forget about the older semi-auto rifles that were available to law enforcement years ago, and think its only a recent invention, which its not.
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 10:41 PM   #22
DieHard06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Easton, PA
Posts: 213
Living in the northeast, I am not as familiar with police carrying them. Having spoken to a leo buddy, some do in fact have them. I guess I was behind the times too. I think they are more covert about here.

Yes, it does seem like the media is making it look as if this is a new trend. Anyone police department buying them now is likely to be outed in the media.
DieHard06 is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 10:42 PM   #23
Willie Sutton
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Posts: 1,066
^^^ Yup.

Winchester 1905 was the functional prototype of them all.....

Lever Action '94 in .30-30 was what they carried "in the trunk" here when I was a kid. Local police had one Thompson that sat in the Chiefs safe: He brought it out on the 4th of July and let the local boy scouts shoot it if they wanted to. Must have worked, one of the scouts is now Chief himself and several of the officers were scouts too. Times have changed, but not a lot: Cops still play with guns and occasionally let friends have a go. The last full auto I shot was a H&K MP-5 that lived in the trunk of an FBI agent friend.

Pay for the ammo... shoot at cans.

Some things never change.


Willie


.
Willie Sutton is offline  
Old January 26, 2013, 11:16 PM   #24
Fishing_Cabin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2010
Posts: 715
Yep Willie,

I guess for those who argue the "militarization of the police" they really dont know of what they are speaking of...

Most of the style/types of firearms that have been used by the military have been used by law enforcement as well. Though law enforcement tends to adopt some firearms later then the military, depending on what firearm type we are speaking of.

Want to argue that a shotgun is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a bolt action rifle is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a semi-auto rifle is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a semi-auto pistol is for only military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue that a double action revolver is for only military? Afterall they used them at various timesin history...

Want to argue that a single action revolver is only for military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue a cap and ball revolver is only for military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

Want to argue a muzzle loader is only for military? Afterall they used them at various times in history...

I struggle to find a firearm type only used for law enforcement that was never adopted officially or unofficially by the military in some way...
Fishing_Cabin is offline  
Old January 27, 2013, 04:48 PM   #25
pcb911
Member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2011
Location: North Georgia & Fl.
Posts: 44
Back in the early 70's, police departments were a major source of class 3 weapons that are in the NFA registry today. For a while a PD could register a class 3 weapon with the ATF and then later sell or trade it to a class 3 dealer. You would be amazed at the weapons that PDs held. Have seen cases of carbines, heavy machine guns and lots of WWII guns.

Since the PD's didn't have money for new guns, the dealer would offer to trade new guns for the old guns. Have seen a commerical Thompson traded for two NIB Colt m-16s. For a long time Colt would only sell m-16s to a dealer if he had a purchase order or letter from the Chief. Can remember when Rem. 870 with folding stock and extended mag tube was for LE only, too. If the PD did not take all the m-16s ordered, then the dealer could sell the extra ones to the private market with a transfer. Something that I loved was that when the old guns left the PD, all the ammo, parts and accessories went to the dealer. There were a lot of collector items in those shipments. Example: 45 cal shot cart. for TSG, mil. cases of match ammo and all sorts of web gear.

The m-16s were the new toy and everyone wanted to get rid of the old guns. It was when the RIT Team training started that the m-16 then the H & Ks became the guns PDs had to have.

There were many discussions concerning guns that the military used and if Miller would apply. It was thought that if you could produce a photograph of a USGI holding any type of weapon in a war zone, it was legal. Example: tunnel rat in Vietnam holding a cut down shotgun or m-1 carbine. The Seals loved to use captured AK-47s instead of the m-16.

Heard two stories about class 3 weapons in the Atlanta PD armory:

1. They had two heavy barrel M-2 .50 cal machine guns. Never saw them.

2. During the riots of the 60s, in a hurry to issue all the auto weapons they had on hand, they forgot to log the serial numbers and who the guns were given to. Supposedly, some never came back in after the riots were over.
__________________
Assume nothing.
pcb911 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13200 seconds with 9 queries