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Old February 15, 2013, 06:27 PM   #76
laytonj1
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On the advice of the instructor, I have stopped shooting for bullseyes and stopped worrying about groups
A well placed first shot would not require follow-ups.

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Old February 15, 2013, 09:32 PM   #77
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But the ability to put another shot in the same place means you can do it again on another target. Shooting a tight group consistently no matter where is the whole point of practicing. The sights can be adjusted or you can adjust where you shoot but the group is the thing.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:02 PM   #78
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A well placed first shot would not require follow-ups.
Its actually a moot point. The others would already be on the way.
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Old February 15, 2013, 10:57 PM   #79
Hal
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But the ability to put another shot in the same place means you can do it again on another target. Shooting a tight group consistently no matter where is the whole point of practicing
I see those two sentences as mutually exclusive.

Take the 4 target setup in tipoc's post for example.
If I took one shot at each target and hit each red bull dead center - that would be what, a 12" group?

Can you seriously say that's "bad shooting", based only on the "group size"?

Or reticle's 10 yard target.
If I stuck three in the red, then shot out the numbers (5,6,7,8,9) then finished off by putting two rounds into the UPC bar code - that's what, another 12" "group".
Would that also be "bad" shooting because it's a 12" "group"?
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Old February 16, 2013, 03:04 AM   #80
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While impressed with the weapon, the instructor gently reamed me for not having the space between my rounds as 2 through the same hole wouldn't do as much damage to the bad guy.
This is the other extreme.

Ask your instructor how many people he has had to shoot at while they stand still and let him put two rounds through the same hole.

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Old February 16, 2013, 03:16 AM   #81
tipoc
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From Hal,

Quote:
Take the 4 target setup in tipoc's post for example.
If I took one shot at each target and hit each red bull dead center - that would be what, a 12" group?
Uh, no. That would be 4 separate shots at 4 separate targets. Had you shot 4 rounds at one of those targets the result would be a group.

Quote:
Can you seriously say that's "bad shooting", based only on the "group size"?
You did not shoot a group. You shot one shot at four different targets and hit each, in your example.

Your second example is as silly.

Again I don't understand what point you are trying to make other than to brag that you can shoot better than some others. Or that shooting at a thing more than once is no good or that you have a prejudice against it. Or that folks should not practice.

It also seems, maybe, that you don't quite understand that the group is the result of shooting multiple shots at the same thing. The aim is for all to hit in the same space, more or less and the group is the result. A person does this to test their skills, their gun, their ammo or just for the fun of it. It how you sight in handguns or rifles.

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That all depends on the range. @ 25 to 30 feet, a can is far too large a target. @ that range, I prefer something more realistic - a spent 9mm Luger case is more like it or a spent .22lr case.
A can would be more appropriate for 200 yards. Maybe 300.
Sorry Hal but at 200-300 yards I can't see a Campbell's soup can over the iron sights of a handgun.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; February 16, 2013 at 03:49 AM.
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Old February 16, 2013, 07:29 AM   #82
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Again I don't understand what point you are trying to make other than to brag that you can shoot better than some others. Or that shooting at a thing more than once is no good or that you have a prejudice against it. Or that folks should not practice
My point is that I don't "do groups".
No where did I say or advocate others shouldn't.
& please, point out exactly where I said other's shouldn't practice?
I'll even go you one better...
Feel free to search back all 6000 plus posts I've made here in the last 14 years and find one where I've ever told someone not to practice.

Do I have a prejudice against shooting at something more than once?
Well, yes, I do.
Why? Because I know I'm capable of better.

Quote:
A person does this to test their skills, their gun, their ammo or just for the fun of it.
This person - meaning me - feels no real need to measure my skills by how close together I can clump shots. I find no fun in doing that. Just the opposite - I found it boring in the extreme.

Quote:
It also seems, maybe, that you don't quite understand that the group is the result of shooting multiple shots at the same thing. The aim is for all to hit in the same space, more or less and the group is the result
I understand all too well what a "group" is.
It seems to me that it's you that doesn't understand what a "group" represents to me.
"The aim is for all to hit in the same space, more or less..."
There is no "more or less" for me.
The shots either all go in the same space or it's a miss.
What you call a "group" - I call a failure on my part to live up to my potential.

Quote:
Sorry Hal but at 200-300 yards I can't see a Campbell's soup can over the iron sights of a handgun.
That's you. I don't hold you or anyone else to my standards so please extend me the common courtesy of not trying to impose your limitations on me - ok?
A soup can at anything less than 200 or even 300 yards would not be enough to challenge what I know I'm capable of.
I know I'm capable of hitting three pennys with less than 10 shots at 50 yards using a stock Ruger .22/45 with open sights. I've done that multiple times.
A target the size of a soup can at that range would be zero challenge for me.
A target this size of a soup can at 100 yards would be a small challenge, but, one that I feel I'm more than able to overcome w/out a whole lot of effort.
300 yards?
Now your talking. That's something I feel would be a challenge to my abilities.

Speaking of which....why is it that you seem to feel that if I hold myself to a higher standard and push myself as hard as I possibly can, it's "bragging"?
Just beacuse I set goals for myself that challange my ability isn't a brag.
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Hal
My point is that I don't "do groups"
I think there's confusion over why you posted "I don't do groups" on a thread that specifically asks "how tight a group can you shoot?". Why participate in the 1st place? Given the context, it turns out "I don't do groups" was easily (and not unreasonably) overinterpreted.

Hal simply doesn't "do" groups. Got it. Thanks for the clarification. So, let's move on and let the folks who do have their thread back now, eh?
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:35 AM   #84
Hal
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Why participate in the 1st place? Given the context, it turns out "I don't do groups" was easily (and not unreasonably) overinterpreted.
Probably because the OP finished off his post by asking:
(and I quote)

"So how good are you? "

That's (IMHO) a fair question & I gave him a fair and honest answer.
My abilites allow me to not "do groups".
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:48 AM   #85
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Depends on how close together they are standing...
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Old February 16, 2013, 09:14 AM   #86
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Hal,

You really set up a challenge for your self to improve your shooting skills. I like to do something a little more difficult each time I shoot so I can shoot better and make it a bit more interesting.

Consider this, each time you shoot at a target you determine if it is a pass of fail. Now after you have shot at 10 different targets, you can look at them as a "group" to determine your over-all consistency. So if 7 out of 10 pass and 3 fail, you now know you pass rate is, obviously, 70%. Thus you now know your overall performance level based on that group of 10 individual tests.

You have set up an interesting way for a shooter to challenge and improve himself in a fun kind of way. And if you use the replacement dots on a Shoot&See target, you can use the same target 12 times more!

Oh, and one more question, is that soup can at 300 yards Chicken Noodle or Cream of Chicken?
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Old February 16, 2013, 09:44 AM   #87
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Talk is cheap, Hal. It's easy to say you can shoot empty cases at 25 yards. We all know that no one ever lies on the internet.

Good shooters can shoot good groups on demand and are willing to prove it.

And sometimes good shooters pull a shot out of the group. See below.

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Old February 16, 2013, 10:27 AM   #88
Hal
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You have set up an interesting way for a shooter to challenge and improve himself in a fun kind of way. And if you use the replacement dots on a Shoot&See target, you can use the same target 12 times more!
FWIW - I like to use those little replacement dots as the actual targets.
I give the actual targets themself to my wife.
& thanks for seeing the fun in a real challenge.

Quote:
Consider this, each time you shoot at a target you determine if it is a pass of fail. Now after you have shot at 10 different targets, you can look at them as a "group" to determine your over-all consistency
I do that in sort of a round about way.
I use individual targets - the center bull - then measure how far from that center each shot hits.
To keep it both a challenge and on some sort of level table, instead of inches or fractions of inches, I gauge the distance away from the center bull by caliber diameter.


Quote:
Oh, and one more question, is that soup can at 300 yards Chicken Noodle or Cream of Chicken?
Either or - your call.
Where abouts are you located & is there a 300 yard place to give it a try?


Quote:
Talk is cheap, Hal. It's easy to say you can shoot empty cases at 25 yards. We all know that no one ever lies on the internet.
Take it or leave it - makes no difference to me.
Just to be clear though, the empty cases I mentioned were @ 25 feet, not 25 yards.
I've done empty .45acp cases at 25 yards before - but -it was some years ago. I'm not 100% sure I could hit as many as I'd like @ 25 yards & whether you believe it or not, I wouldn't want to lie about it.
(not to you mind you, I mean lie to me about it..I couldn't care less what you believe or don't)

Quote:
Good shooters can shoot good groups on demand and are willing to prove it.
Exactly & that's exactly my point.
They feel some need to prove it.
I feel no need to prove anything to anyone -other than myself.
Why should I?

Last edited by Hal; February 16, 2013 at 10:36 AM.
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Old February 16, 2013, 11:42 AM   #89
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I feel no need to prove anything to anyone -other than myself.
Why should I?
No need at all. Thanks for your opinion and the clarification.

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Old February 16, 2013, 12:10 PM   #90
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Here's a couple of groups I shot with two of my 1911's.

25yds standing, one free hand.

When I was young I was taught that if a handgun was meant to be shot with two hands it would have two handles on it......


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Old February 16, 2013, 12:43 PM   #91
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I've qualified expert on both M9 and M4/M16 in the USAF but I am no where as good as some on the shooters on this forum. I don't compete and most of my accuracy practice is around 7-15 yards. When I shoot 25 yards, it's usually a 8" gong and can usually get it around 8 out of 10. I realize I need to shoot more.
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Old February 16, 2013, 01:24 PM   #92
tipoc
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Old Grump,

Back on page 2 you have a pic of a M41. What are you using there as a holster for it?

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Old February 16, 2013, 01:45 PM   #93
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Colt GM 25 yards. Win. 230 gr. jhp. Like I've said I'm a mediocre shot when I can I use a brace, here it was an open car door.



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Old February 16, 2013, 03:25 PM   #94
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Quote:
Old Grump,

Back on page 2 you have a pic of a M41. What are you using there as a holster for it?

tipoc
I had to go look it up because I never paid attention to who made it. I bought it for my H&R 922 my very first handgun back in 1969. In 1973 when I acquired my S&W M41 I found it fit the same holster. Since I don't use both at the same time the holster gets used for whichever gun I am shooting that day. The only markings I can find on it say "Hunter" which is printed inside a powder horn and below that the numbers "1100K 52". Don't ask me where I got it because it could have been Las Cruces, San Diego, El Paso or anyplace in between. K-Mart, gun store or Army Surplus store. I don't know, I have done a whole lot of sleeping since then and bought a whole lot of holsters.

I looked it up and to my surprise my brand spanking new holster is now listed as vintage and can be had for $50. Vintage???? Okay, I'm old but vintage?

Anyway the company is still making holsters and still making 1100 series so if you are looking for one for your gun here is a link that might help you.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c....aspx?a=275690
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Old February 16, 2013, 04:24 PM   #95
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"Aim small, miss small".

"Aim small-ER and miss even small-ER. Or don't. Whatever you're happy with seems like a good goal.



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Old February 16, 2013, 04:54 PM   #96
Peter M. Eick
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Pretty sure this was 25 yards. 38 super Les Baer, 50 shots offhand



My normal is more 15 yrds, here is 50 shots with my pre-25.



This was 25 yrds, 50 shots with my 357 Maximum.



This was at 15 yrds. 50 shots, offhand with my 1939 Registered Magnum. I was in the groove that day!



This is from 15 yrds with my carry gun. 50 shots of duty ammo.

I would consider myself mediocre. I am still banging away at 15 and just starting to move to 25 yrds. It will be a long time till I get consistent at 25 and then start to play around with moving to 50 yrds.
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Old February 16, 2013, 08:14 PM   #97
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Thats some good shooting peter. I shot my new sr9c for the first time yeterday and shot a group very similar to your last picture except i was only at 10-12 yards. I emptied my 17 shot mag and could put a quarter through the hole in the bullseye without touching paper. With practice im hoping to duplicate it at 15 yards and further overtime. This was the first time to the range with a pistol for me so i was quite happy. I have been shooting rifles and shotguns recreationally and hunting for about 16 years now and the firing line forums have pushed me to get into handguns. Hopefully ill be doing my idpa classifier this summer.
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Old February 17, 2013, 07:03 AM   #98
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Nice

Peter: You are being modest. That 50 yard target is marvelous shooting, especially if "offhand" means one hand unsupported.....but even if it were done with two, it is fine shooting.

Pete

Ps - an observation. I tend to take info in posts at face value. If someone says that they can shoot such and such a group (or not), I accept that. Others don't, I know...but I don't see why a person would lie about their prowess. What would be the point? To have some people that they don't know think that they are better shots than they really are? Doesn't make any sense to me.
What I really don't understand, though, is why some of us don't make more of our talents. A number of posters have discussed shooting that is fine enough to make them National Champions.....and yet, unless they are Gunny Zinns in real life, they are not using those talents to their best. That I don't understand either.
P
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Old February 17, 2013, 09:35 AM   #99
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...What I really don't understand, though, is why some of us don't make more of our talents. A number of posters have discussed shooting that is fine enough to make them National Champions.....and yet, unless they are Gunny Zinns in real life, they are not using those talents to their best. That I don't understand either...
Why would getting some kind of award like "National Champion", whatever that is, make "more of their talents"?

There are plenty of people who are great shots, great runners, great woodworkers, great musicians etc. They simply enjoy being highly skilled. Buying a trophy to go along with that set of skills doesn't make them any better at it. And not having a trophy certainly doesn't mean they "aren't using those talents to their best". The BEST use of my "talents", in any field, are self satisfaction in that field.

Life isn't a contest.


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Old February 17, 2013, 11:09 AM   #100
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After leaving the military reserves I couldn't afford to travel to championship matches anymore but I did and do have skills to impart and so I teach. It costs me noting, I don't charge and I leave behind me a core of skilled shooters both police military and civilian who will be up for a challenge if they are ever called upon to use their guns.
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