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Old February 5, 2013, 03:06 PM   #51
FlyFish
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After a few decades of competing in NRA Conventional Pistol (Bullseye) matches with a number of teams in a few different leagues, my experience has been that those who are considered "very good" shooters usually keep all of their slow-fire shots in the black (using standard NRA targets at their rated distances). That would mean groups within a max spread of bit more than 3" at 50 ft and a bit less than 5.5" at 25 yds. That's shooting with one hand standing unsupported - using two hands those groups would shrink a good bit. Assuming they're comparably proficient in the sustained fire stages, such shooters will usually be classified as NRA Expert, which starts at a score of 270 out of 300, i.e., 90%.
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Old February 5, 2013, 03:23 PM   #52
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If I can keep a group to 3" or under at 50' with my handguns, using two hands. I call it a good day.

My one handed groups aren't that tight yet, but I'm working on them.

best I ever shot was a 1 1/2" group with the buckmark and a 2 1/4" with the 1911.
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Old February 5, 2013, 03:26 PM   #53
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...those who are considered "very good" shooters usually keep all of their slow-fire shots in the black (using standard NRA targets at their rated distances). That would mean groups within a max spread of bit more than 3" at 50 ft and a bit less than 5.5" at 25 yds. That's shooting with one hand standing unsupported - using two hands those groups would shrink a good bit.
Good goals to work towards.

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Old February 7, 2013, 06:25 PM   #54
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Ten rounds @ ten yards moderate rate of fire. As equipped in pic.

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Old February 7, 2013, 06:46 PM   #55
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I've never been able to shoot a pistol that well - I could keep them all on the paper at 25 yards, but all in the black was pretty rare. But my dad could drive nails with his Smith Model 41, and he could do it left handed when the pistol had grips contoured to his right hand. Some people are just steadier than others.
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Old February 7, 2013, 08:43 PM   #56
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I did this today while finishing up regulating the sights on my new .44 Special New Vaqueros. Shot from a rest.

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Old February 8, 2013, 01:55 AM   #57
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Here you see a 98 year old S&W Triple Lock in .44 Spl. I was shooting the Rem. 246 gr. LRN from a rest at 25 yards. I tossed a couple in the lower box but 10 of the 12 made a group just a tad above 3". With a select load, and a better shooter, the old gun could do better. The point of aim was the small X to the right of the box.



Below you see the same gun at the same difference with a 200 gr. Blazer load. About a 5" difference in point of aim/ point of impact with this round from this gun. I tossed four of the 12 high, but the rest showed the potential of the old gun. Small X was the point of aim.



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Old February 8, 2013, 02:50 AM   #58
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I don't really do much handgun shooting farther than 15 yards, so my 25 yard groups are still pretty loose. I'd be surprised to hit the paper at 50 yards, lol. At 7 yards, though, I can pretty regularly shoot 2" five shot groups, and that's with any of my handguns...various semis and revolvers ranging from .380 to .44 Mag.

I did get a kick out of the CCW qualification shooting, though. I was shooting a borrowed Colt 1911 .45 ACP for the first time. The instructor wasn't watching me very closely for the "15 shots @ 3 yards" part of the test, and he questioned whether I'd shot all 15 rounds. My target had a one 3/4" hole in the middle of the 12" x 18" target, with one stray round about 1" high and right.


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Old February 8, 2013, 05:08 AM   #59
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At 50' with my P226 Navy at one shot per second, I can group about a 2 inch pattern. Trigger is stock, sights are stock. Gun is amazing, and I am not
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Old February 8, 2013, 05:20 AM   #60
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8-10 inch target @100 yards with my G22. Been shooting it for 12 years though. Can't even come close with my G33.

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Old February 10, 2013, 11:51 AM   #61
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At 25 feet with my K38 Masterpiece the group on the left is typical for me. On very very rare occasions I get it all just right and get a group like the one on the right.

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Old February 11, 2013, 12:34 PM   #62
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I was taught years ago by my US Navy command's small arms marksmanship instructor that for personal defense, use the numbers. By "numbers" he means this for 6-shot revolvers: 6 shots in 6 seconds at 6 yards inside 6 inches. Change the numbers to 7 for a .45 M1911. And 13 for my Browning 9mm. Then do it to at least the 80% level; 80% of your shots do it. My nephew on a Kansas police department says that's good and easy to do standard.

I've heard that US Air Marshall have to pass a 1.5 second rule in training. Seated in a passenger seat aboard a plane, their .357 SIG 229 loaded and consealed inside their coat, show an apple size target at 7 yards and he has to stand, draw then shoot and hit it. . .inside 1.5 seconds.
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Old February 12, 2013, 11:19 AM   #63
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I've heard that US Air Marshall have to pass a 1.5 second rule in training. Seated in a passenger seat aboard a plane, their .357 SIG 229 loaded and consealed inside their coat, show an apple size target at 7 yards and he has to stand, draw then shoot and hit it. . .inside 1.5 seconds.
Well, I’ve spent many happy hours running the timer at steel matches and I just don’t believe that. The best local shooters in the IDPA classes would be considered pretty fast if they could draw and hit a 10” plate at 7 yds in that time. Add standing up and clearing a jacket? On a 4” target? I’d have to see that for myself.
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Old February 12, 2013, 05:45 PM   #64
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I must have some kind of "freak" Ruger because my M77 will do dime sized groups @100m if I do my part.
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Old February 12, 2013, 07:16 PM   #65
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I must have some kind of "freak" Ruger because my M77 will do dime sized groups @100m if I do my part.
You do. But the discussion is about handguns.

My Wilson Combat at 20 yards.
One flyer on each.

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Old February 13, 2013, 05:12 PM   #66
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I must have some kind of "freak" Ruger because my M77 will do dime sized groups @100m if I do my part.
Cut the barrel down to about 7", remove the rifle stock and install a pistol grip, get the stamp from Uncle Sammy so he won't arrest you and do that dime size group again. If it's that freaky good you should still be able to do it.

Just pulling your leg mate but check to see what the rest of us are shooting then compare apples to apples.
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Old February 15, 2013, 09:25 AM   #67
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How tight a group can you shoot
Only "group" I recall shooting off hand was a good ten years plus ago.
It was a tad over 4 inches fired standing w/a two hand hold at 50 yards using my (at the time) brand new CZ75b.
That was a ten shot string.
I was curious how a "combat" pistol like the 75b would work at that range.

I fired a couple of other "groups" using my S&W M 22/s from a rest using a 4x scope.
50 shots into a dime sized hole @ 25 yards fired indoors from a seated position.
40 shots into a nickle sized group @ 50 yards fired outdoors from a seated position.

Other than those few times, I don't "do groups".
Groups have little to no meaning to me.

I either hit what I intend to hit or miss it.
A tightly clustered group of shots wide of the intended point of aim seldom if ever impresses me.
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Old February 15, 2013, 12:12 PM   #68
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I either hit what I intend to hit or miss it.
A tightly clustered group of shots wide of the intended point of aim seldom if ever impresses me.
That's good Hal. This thread may not be for you then.

It may just be for the fellas who try out new guns or new ammo and want to see how they shoot. It may just be for shooters who can't shoot nickel sized groups with a handgun at 50 yards but want to improve their skills anyway.

It may be for the bullseye shooters who regularly punch paper.

Or the reloader who tries out new bullets and loads on the range and is interested in how accurate they are and knows that the best test of that is paper. The holes in paper don't lie, or exaggerate or forget. They sit there for as long as you have the paper or a pic of it or notes on it.

It may be for the person who can't regularly shoot pinecones off the trees on the hill in back of their house cuz someone went and built a bunch of buildings on the hillside so they have'ta go to a shooting range.

It might be for the fella who wants to adjust their sights for a particular load till point of aim is point of impact.

It could be for the new shooter who is uncertain about their own shooting and wants to know what's reasonable.

It could also just be for fun.

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Old February 15, 2013, 01:06 PM   #69
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I dunno tipoc.....would you feel better if you handed me that M10 up above & I called the 8,9, and red on the top target and the 8, 9 and 8 on the bottom target - then erased them from the targets in that called order?
Then I could say I shot two 3" "groups"...
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:36 PM   #70
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I dunno tipoc.....would you feel better if you handed me that M10 up above & I called the 8,9, and red on the top target and the 8, 9 and 8 on the bottom target - then erased them from the targets in that called order?
Then I could say I shot two 3" "groups"...
And your point is what? That unlike the rest of us you never miss?
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Old February 15, 2013, 01:40 PM   #71
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Frankly Hal I don't know what you're speaking about. "8,9,10" I don't see what you're referring to. So I have no opinion on that.

If a person shoots more than a shot or two at the same target or aiming point, the result is a group. Might be a 3 shot group, but it's a group as rifle shooters will tell you.

But if you find it useful to shoot only one shot at one target then shoot one shot at another target then change up and shoot one shot at a third target and do that till you run out of things to shoot at, all so that you can say that you don't shoot more than one shot at the same target and thus don't shoot a group, well have a good time doing it.

Of course you could just shot rocks and tin cans, etc. Which is fun and good practice. But it doesn't tell you as much as shooting 10 rounds at the same point of aim on paper tells you.

Quote:
I either hit what I intend to hit or miss it.
That's how it usually works.

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Old February 15, 2013, 03:00 PM   #72
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Frankly Hal I don't know what you're speaking about. "8,9,10"
I said - 8, 9 and red on the top target - those numbers printed on the target and the red center bull.
And, 8, 9 and 8 on the bottom target - again the numbers printed on the target.

At 7 to 8 yards shooting two handed that's what I'd expect to hit on each of those targets & I'd be pretty upset with myself if I missed.

Quote:
Of course you could just shot rocks and tin cans, etc. Which is fun and good practice. But it doesn't tell you as much as shooting 10 rounds at the same point of aim on paper tells you.
That all depends on the range. @ 25 to 30 feet, a can is far too large a target. @ that range, I prefer something more realistic - a spent 9mm Luger case is more like it or a spent .22lr case.
A can would be more appropriate for 200 yards. Maybe 300.

Anyhow - let's say for the sake of discussion we stuck a spent 9mm shell on a target and I shot at it 3 times. Each shot missed by a little - but - all three shots went into a "group" under an inch across.

By your standards - shots clustered together - what would 3 shots into a group under 1" across @ 7 yards, shooting a two hand hold be?
Good, fair, what?

By my standards, I'd call it three clean missed shots.

Quote:
And your point is what? That unlike the rest of us you never miss?
Not at all - I miss - quite frequently as a matter of fact.
Unlike most though, I don't consider my missed shots anything special just because they are clustered together.

Take Bob's one shot target w/a .45 on the previous page for example.
One of my favorite targets used to be a plain 8x11 sheet of paper. I'd run that out to about 25 feet and put a single round of .45acp into it.
Then I'd take my bone stock Ruger .22/45 and see how many shots I could put through that hole w/out touching any paper.
My best at that was 40 something shots. 46 if I recall exactly.
That was shooting a two hand hold from a standing position.

So - yes - I miss. My miss in this case resulted in a "group" of about 3/4" instead of .45".
Impresssive? Not really. Not to me anyhow. Sort of ticked me off big time. I wanted 50 shots into a .45 hole so bad I could almost taste it.
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Old February 15, 2013, 04:17 PM   #73
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That all depends on the range. @ 25 to 30 feet, a can is far too large a target. @ that range, I prefer something more realistic - a spent 9mm Luger case is more like it or a spent .22lr case.
A can would be more appropriate for 200 yards. Maybe 300.

lol wow... I don't know what to say. Just want you to know that I saw this and I said "wow".

Quote:
I wanted 50 shots into a .45 hole so bad I could almost taste it.
That's cool man. Do that.

I posted a little further back in this thread a pic I did with my SIG P226 with 150 rounds of my "grouping" (which I'm learning it's a horrible cluster of misses apparently). I guess I'm crap now.

Gotta get that 150 rounds into a quarter shape.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:00 PM   #74
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That's cool man. Do that.
Sorry - I lost the desire to do that so it's not going to happen.
To put that in the proper perspective.
Olympic slow fire air pistol is 60 shots @ a bull 1/2" in diameter fired one handed.
My feeble attempt at trying that was using a two handed hold @ roughly 10 meters - give or take a couple feet.
My 46 out of 50 into a .45" hole doesn't even qualify as an honerable mention in that regard - let alone motivate me to continue on w/that experiment and switch over to one handed shooting.

Quote:
Gotta get that 150 rounds into a quarter shape.
As long as it makes the X disappear...that's all I'm concerned with.
You can be your own judge of what you want.
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Old February 15, 2013, 05:17 PM   #75
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When you speak of groups from your pistol ...

are you talking about carefully aimed, slow fire groups and at what range?

Not asking to be smart but to clarify for my knowledge. I used to worry about slow fire, very carefully aimed shots at a particular yardage until I took my ccw class a couple years ago.

The instructor also taught self-defense shooting and in order to qualify we shot (approx) 18" x 24" target at 7 yds, in double taps. A good hit was anywhere on the paper and hopefully 5-6 inches apart. On that day I was very lucky to put 2 from my double taps in the same hole with my Kimber. While impressed with the weapon, the instructor gently reamed me for not having the space between my rounds as 2 through the same hole wouldn't do as much damage to the bad guy.

On the advice of the instructor, I have stopped shooting for bullseyes and stopped worrying about groups
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