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Old January 29, 2013, 08:45 AM   #26
Mike Irwin
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Nice pre-Model 10/pre-Victory/pre-square butt/pre-five screw, Jeff.

I've been looking for a Model of 1899 to join my collection (that's right, I collect Smith & Wesson revolvers, 22 of them at this point) for years now.

It seems that every time I find one I'm minutes late and someone else is buying it.

Last one was a fairly pristine 6" in .38 Long Colt with a high three-digit serial number for under $1k.

That one hurt.
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Old January 29, 2013, 10:57 AM   #27
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Mike,

Quit crying! Pick up a copy of Supica and Nahas "Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson" (the third edition is handy), drop by a gun show, go over to the Colt Forum or the Ruger or S&W forums and as you know collectors and gun aficionados name things and debate the variations. The nomenclature becomes accepted.

If you want to just call an old Registered Magnum from 1939 "an old gun in .357 Magnum" well your call. But if you want to know more about it, to see if the front and rear sights on your gun are factory or aftermarket and to learn the possible value of the gun then you go speak with the collectors and see their lingo and see that it has worth.

This may frustrate you all to heck, for some reason, but it's the case. Whether it's guns, small block Chevy's or Hummel figurines.

Some folks don't collect S&Ws, they just own a few old guns.

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Old January 29, 2013, 12:53 PM   #28
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Actually, I think I'll just catch up with Rick and Jim at the next gunshow and have them autograph my latest copy. It's time Rick and I have another good long talk because I need his help in tracking down a few things.

Frustrated? Crying? Try laughing my ass off at people who try to make arbitary determinations of precise, perfect nomenclature on based on what they think they know and what they think others should do.

I'm not the once screaming NO! NO! NO! at the top of my lungs every time someone has the temerity to utter those dread forbidden words "Pre Model 10!"

It's almost as amusing as the people who go into apoplectic fits when someone sticks Long in between .45 and Colt.

Unlike the screechers, I know EXACTLY what someone is talking about when they say pre-Model 10, post Registered Magnum, or Victory Model, NONE of which was ever an official nomenclature, but all three of which serve a very useful purpose.

Oh well.
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Old January 29, 2013, 07:26 PM   #29
Jeff #111
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Mike Irwin:

Quote:
Nice pre-Model 10/pre-Victory/pre-square butt/pre-five screw, Jeff.
I've been looking for a Model of 1899 to join my collection (that's right, I collect Smith & Wesson revolvers, 22 of them at this point) for years now.

It seems that every time I find one I'm minutes late and someone else is buying it.Last one was a fairly pristine 6" in .38 Long Colt with a high three-digit serial number for under $1k.

That one hurt.
Thanks Mike. Mine has a couple issues ,as I'm sure you've noticed. But all the parts have the correct serial numbers - to include the grips. Mecahnically it's in good shape and the finish isn't bad considering it's 111 years old.

I picked it up for $375.00 at a local pawn shop of all places. Originally it was priced at $500.00, but it had sat in their display case for several months and they wanted to move it out the door. The manager came down to $450 initially and when I hesitated dropped to $375.00 and I was sold.

I believed (and still do) that I wasn't going to do much better than that. Even with the original end cap on the ejector rod missing. Like you I collect S&W revolvers and I've been wanted an 1899 in my collection for awhile. I'm not a rich man so I take my little finds where and when I can. If there are a few (minor) issues I figure I can live with them.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:59 AM   #30
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"When someone sticks Long between .45 and Colt"!!! Uh Oh, you've done it now!!
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Old January 30, 2013, 10:08 AM   #31
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Never heard of a "post Registered Magnum."
I HAVE read collectors to refer to an "Unregistered Magnum" which has the specific meaning of a .357 Magnum made before WW II after sales got so good they could not keep up with stamping the extra number and issuing the certificate. It does not refer to any post-war revolver.
There are reportedly fewer Unregistered Magnums than Registered Magnums, but that extra little touch of elegance is still preferred.
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Old January 30, 2013, 10:52 AM   #32
Mike Irwin
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post Registered Magnum = Unregistered Magnum.


"There are reportedly fewer Unregistered Magnums than Registered Magnums, but that extra little touch of elegance is still preferred."

That is true. S&W had to shut down production of the Magnums and most of the other revolvers in thier line to concentrate on fulfilling their initial commitment to the British (wow, would those have been pre-Model 10 pre-Victory models?) in compensation for the Light Rifle fiasco.
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Old January 30, 2013, 03:29 PM   #33
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Hi, Jeff #111,

The ejector rod head on your 1899 is not original; otherwise a nice gun.

Jim
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Old January 30, 2013, 07:42 PM   #34
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Mike you actually are miffed about this stuff. Someone must have ticked you off over to the S&W forum. You still crying.

Or maybe you're irritated that sometimes people get their facts wrong when they think they are right. Folks make mistakes. Oh Well.

By the way, the fellas whose work you have such obvious disdain for, list and describe on pages 132-135 of the third edition of "The Standard Catalog": "The Registered magnum", "Pre-War .357 Magnum Non-Registered", the ".357 Magnum Transitional Postwar", and the ".357 Magnum Model of 1950 (Pre-Model 27)" all the early non numbered variations of the early N frame .357s. Four different designations before we get to the M27. They discuss in detail the differences in the guns and nomenclature. They only refer to one as a "Pre Model 27". True the factory did not call the guns that, but the collectors do.

As you are likely aware the "Victory" model M&Ps were so named because of the "V" serial number placed in the prefix by S&W indicating a desire for victory over the Axis. Again the "Standard Catalog" takes up pages 142 and 43 with a description of them.

It's tough when you move into a new neighborhood and all the streets are named after trees but you really want them to be named after Presidents so you holler and hoot. It's rough when no-body listens. I feel for ya.

But Roy Jinks, and Neal and Nahas and many others worked on these things for some time. When you next see them, as you say you will, complain to them about it.

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Old January 31, 2013, 07:24 AM   #35
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Pathetic that some can read the words, but can't understand the critical differences between official factory nomenclature and terms that arose out of the collector and user communities, and which were never adopted by, or used, by Smith & Wesson.

Not surprising, but still pathetic.
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
I own a S&W M&P Model of 1899 in .38 Special. Made right at the end before the Model of 1902 was introduced. But here is the fun part. It has four screws. So I guess that makes it a pre 5-Screw 4-Screw.
If you were being serious... that is a five screw. The fifth screw is the one in front of the trigger guard. Looking at the bottom of the gun, from the front. Five screws only have four screws on the side...

Gregg
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:51 PM   #37
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If I remember right, on the 1899 or the first model as they call it, the Army-Navy gun, there only are 4 screws and the round butt.

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Old January 31, 2013, 06:32 PM   #38
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Well the Smithsonian has attempted to buy my S&W collection at least 5x, so I'm going to weigh in on this thread.

Quote:
You've got an earlyish Model of 1905 4th change

Not really early when you think about it. The 1905 4th change started with SN 241704. Early to me, would be 245XXX or before, not 565XXX!

Quote:
possibly one of the last ones made with the hard rubber stocks, which were dropped as an option in, I believe, the early 1930s.
Maybe so, but recognize the real reason the OPs gun has hard rubber is beccause the gun is a round butt. For square butt guns, IE since the 1905 model arrived, all square butt guns got wood, and round butt guns, with the exception of the 1899 military, got rubber. I have not seen many pre war round butt M&Ps with wood grips. I assume, as you said, rubber was discontinued for round butt guns at some point, but I have no idea when it was. In my collection, I have a 563XXX 4in round butt pre war M&P.

Quote:
The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors.
I don't like the pre 10 designation BUT, I also don't bother to debate it, usually. Some people do extend the "pre XX" designation to mean pre war guns as well, which makes things more confusing for everyone. However, there is the "When in Rome..." thing, which applies. If I tell them i like S&Ws, I won't say I like 1905 X change guns, but rather "5 screw guns" or maybe even, dare I say, pre model 10s, because they will most likely know what I mean. As a collector, I'm not going to educate "professional" sellers and get an eye from the guy behind the counter, when he sees I'm half his age. Unfortunately, age does not equal knowledge, but few people realize that.

If I'm talking to a S&W collector, and I say I have something, I call it a 1905 X change, or a post war M&P, model 10-1, etc. The factory did call them M&Ps before they were the model 10, so to have a name alternate to "M&P" isn't necessary. Same is true for other models. When you call it a 1905 4th change, S&W collectors know what gun, features, and era. If you call it "pre 10" I will wonder if its actually an 1899!

Quote:
I have an S&W that is obviously a pre-Model 10. I once called it a Model 1 Second Issue, but that was before I got eddikated by the eggspurts. And it certainly is PRE Model 10. About a century PRE.
Someday I hope to get a S&W pre-revolver pistol aka a volcanic pistol. Btw, is your spell check defective? See if its still under warranty.

Quote:
go over to the Colt Forum or the Ruger or S&W forums and as you know collectors and gun aficionados name things and debate the variations. The nomenclature becomes accepted.
Well I tell ya what, if I don't know the guy, I will use pre 10, or whatever lingo to make sure he understands. I do try and of course use the correct lingo, but when you don't have time to explain to them, and they don't care to know or perhaps don't believe you because they know Uncle Billy knew his guns , then to me, it is a pre 10, even if its a 1899 lol! If I sell a gun online, I fill the title with every possible logical name for the gun. I also search for guns that are list improperly for these reasons. Sometimes you have to go with what is commonly spoken unless you have a TON of free time on your hands with a lot of patience. I know I don't. If you want to learn what I have, learn they way I did. I don't give free education as much as I did.

Quote:
Unlike the screechers, I know EXACTLY what someone is talking about when they say pre-Model 10, post Registered Magnum, or Victory Model, NONE of which was ever an official nomenclature
That's definitely impossible. If you mean to say if someone says it a pre model 10, you know its K frame and 38 special, that's one thing, BUT you have no idea which variation, and there are many. Pre 10 is a very broad umbrella. Some people will occasionally call a M&P target a pre 10 with target sights or something. You can't assume what a pre model 10 is when it can cover 58 years or so of manufacturing, with tons of variations. "Post registered magnum" could be a non-registered, post war transitional, or a 357 model of 1950 5 screw, or even a 4 screw model of 1950. Victory model would probably cover pre victory guns (they resemble victories, but lack V prefix), they could be 38 special or 38 S&W, etc. Once again, you can't assume that guy looks at the model differences the way you yourself do.

I think tipoc has made good points, but many many people look at this basically the way Mike does, and some others would say even Mike is too specific. As a collector, like tipoc, I won't call a model 1902 a pre model 10, and I probably wouldn't call a 1954 M&P a pre 10 either. However, since so many people do, you have to also, IMO speak that "dialect" of the S&W language to make for easier communication.

Quote:
I've been looking for a Model of 1899 to join my collection (that's right, I collect Smith & Wesson revolvers, 22 of them at this point) for years now.
I too want an 1899. Sorry to hear about the one you missed. Maybe I will find you a 1899 but that will be a harder task than a model 12. Maybe I will find one in the TFL classifieds before you do

22 S&W revolvers? I think I was born with that many.
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Old January 31, 2013, 06:36 PM   #39
Rainbow Demon
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Nice .38 Hand Ejector. Identical to my .32 "I Frame" (not an official designation) except for scale.
If I could afford it I'd like to have one Hand Ejector of each frame size, with an unaltered .455 British contract version being on the wish list.

The side sprung hammer block can be disabled by hardened fouling and grime, or rust. It can also lose spring tension, or very rarely be found broken.
Warping of the side plate from ham handed removal can also result in binding of the hammer block.

First thing I did with my Hand Ejector was to detail strip and clean every internal part, and carefully check the function of the hammer block.


PS
"Pre-64 Model 70" is a commonly used term among collectors, so pre Model 10 M&P is fine with me, though generic and not very descriptive and it includes a number of variants.
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Old January 31, 2013, 06:45 PM   #40
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Quote:
"Pre-64 Model 70" is a commonly used term among collectors, so pre Model 10 M&P is fine with me, though generic and not very descriptive and it includes a number of variants.
Not the best analogy. The pre 64 model 70 refers to a model 70 with CRF, cut checkering, among other higher cost features. The S&W confusion comes with S&W renaming the guns in 1957. S&W didn't cheapen the guns very much in that era, at least in a meaningful way. Winchester simply cheapened all of their guns and discontinued many. For many people, the last Winchesters were made in 1963. With S&W, its not that way. Many people like S&Ws a lot up until 1980. Others say the last great ones were 4 screws, but the model vs pre model stuff occurred before the 4th screw was dropped. The irony in what you said is that it was the shooters and hunters who started the stuff about pre 64 Winchesters, in 1964, because they felt Winchester had sold out. If not for those Winchester owners/users, who knows if people would care so much today.
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Old February 1, 2013, 12:37 AM   #41
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I purchased a nice little K-frame .38 special years ago without really knowing what it was. I joined the SW Forum just to find out. They told me it was a SW pre-M&P Target Model from the late 20s. Now, since the M&P is a fixed sight revolver, how can an adjustable sight revolver be a pre-M&P?

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Old February 1, 2013, 01:58 AM   #42
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Quote:
Now, since the M&P is a fixed sight revolver, how can an adjustable sight revolver be a pre-M&P?
From the beginning of the Military and Police line most were fixed sight guns but target versions of the guns were offered. The had the front and rear sights shown in your pic.

I would of described the gun this way (without knowing the serial number I go by your 1920s DOB)...38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905, 4th change Target Variation. I would have added that it was part of S&Ws Military and Police line of guns. I believe by then that S&W was calling them the M&P line. I would not have called it a pre-M&P.

I also would have encouraged you to get a copy of the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson. Used, good condition copies are available for a small investment. Fun reading and very useful over the years.

If you really want all the details, including where it was shipped to by the factory and when it was shipped a letter from S&W historian Roy Jinks will do that. Also be more accurate than what I'm recalling here.

Sometimes people make mistakes in internet forums. Shocking ain't it!

Nice looking gun by the way.

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Old February 1, 2013, 08:17 AM   #43
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Despite the risk of arousing someones ire, I feel the urge to add my comments to this discussion. I worked for many years as mechanic and learned early on to be very specific in my nomenclature of make/model/year and various other sundry details of whatever machine that I was working on.

This OCD attitude has permeated my life and I find that now I dislike it when someone is trying to describe something using the most basic of generalities. True, if someone says "I have a pre model 10" I would know what they basically have, but only in the most general way.

If, however, they say "I have a pre war M&P, model of 1905 4th change, Smith and Wesson in .38 special" you know exactly what they have. I think that part of the problem is the general laziness that seems to have overtaken our language, where people don't want to take the time to be more specific. You know, the old "that's close enough" attitude.

Now, I don't have a world class collection of Smiths, in fact it only consists of seven guns. I have, however made the effort to know what I have, when it was made and a little of the history of the various guns in my safe.

I know that my personal feelings about the whole "pre model" thing will make no difference in what people say. If others want to be somewhat lazy, that is their business, not mine.

Don't get me started on those that post on the forums with questions regarding what year their gun was made, when if they had bothered to take a few minutes to do some research, they could have found out using the same online sources that those who answer them use.

And then there are the people that have questions about their S&W .38 CTG.

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Old February 1, 2013, 08:52 AM   #44
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Nice pre-Model 10/pre Victory there, KYJim.

If someone told you that it's a pre-M&P, though, that's absolutely incorrect, because the Model of 1899, the very first .38 Hand Ejectors, were Military & Police Models, and that name has been carried through to today.

If this were anything other than a hobby, if it were a vocation, if peoples' lives depended on exact, specific terminology, that would be one thing.

But this is a hobby, and most of the disputed designations being discussed here arose from the various hobbyist communities, not from official factory nomenclature.

Supica and Nahaus include some of those hobbyist designations in their books, but that in no way conveys any sense or nature of officiality other than they're the ones who compiled the book. It certain means no official standing from S&W.

Until Congress passes a law instituting an S&W equivalent of the Icelandic Language Council, those terms remain hobbyist designations with absolutely NO official status other than some people use them, and some don't.
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Old February 1, 2013, 11:00 AM   #45
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I recently acquired an old one as well. I believe it's a first model hand ejector. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1359734303.332598.jpg
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Old February 1, 2013, 11:34 AM   #46
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Quote:
But this is a hobby, and most of the disputed designations being discussed here arose from the various hobbyist communities, not from official factory nomenclature.
Everyone knows that boss. I'd just add that many of the designations collectors use arose from S&W and from factory literature.

Companies, whether they make guns or automobiles, produce them for a profit and with that foremost in mind. They make design changes or name changes as they see fit or as the market or contracts demand. They are not so interested in keeping track of the name changes that they make or the details of the variations. They can't tell ya how many guns were shipped with a combination of new and old features decades after the fact, they did not care for the most part.

The shooters who loved their guns and historians did care and started keeping track. They developed a nomenclature to help keep it sorted out that often builds on factory nomenclature. For good or ill and with some disputes those designations stand. This works for S&W aficionados, Colt collectors, Ruger guys, Luger folks and many others. It also works for Chevy and Dodge guys, the saber-metricians of baseball, stamp collectors, etc., etc.

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Old February 1, 2013, 01:44 PM   #47
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if Smith and Wesson really cared about what thier collectors/customers thought, there wouldn't be a Stryker-fired DAO polymer pistol called the M&P....
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:14 PM   #48
KyJim
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Quote:
I would of described the gun this way (without knowing the serial number I go by your 1920s DOB)...38 Hand Ejector Model of 1905, 4th change Target Variation. I would have added that it was part of S&Ws Military and Police line of guns. I believe by then that S&W was calling them the M&P line. I would not have called it a pre-M&P.
That makes sense to me.

Quote:
Nice pre-Model 10/pre Victory there, KYJim.

If someone told you that it's a pre-M&P, though, that's absolutely incorrect, because the Model of 1899, the very first .38 Hand Ejectors, were Military & Police Models, and that name has been carried through to today.
Thanks for the compliment. It's a really nice revolver to shoot. On the pre-M&P designation, maybe I'll just start using Tipoc's description.
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