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Old January 25, 2013, 08:09 PM   #1
Jkraig
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Very Old S&W Revolver - What do I have?

I recently traded for this revolver, but am unsure of the year or model. Any help would be appreciated. The owner thought is was from 1902.

Serial # 565xxx
Left side barrel: 38 S&W Special CTG
Right Side of Barrel: SMITH & WESSON
Top of barrel: Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA
Patented Feb, 6,06 Sept14,09 Dec,29,14
Left Frame: Made in USA
Right Frame: Trade Mark and S&W logo
Inside of frame near the cylinder: 35578
Cylinder: # matches the serial number






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Old January 25, 2013, 08:10 PM   #2
Jkraig
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Old January 25, 2013, 08:33 PM   #3
bamabiker
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I believe you have a .38 Special Hand Ejector M&P from 1905 - 06.
I don't know much about these old M&Ps so I'll let someone else tell you more.

Made a boo boo on the date, I thought it was a 5 digit number. Need to keep my glasses on.

Last edited by bamabiker; January 25, 2013 at 10:08 PM.
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Old January 25, 2013, 08:41 PM   #4
Jkraig
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Thank you. Hopefully I can get some others to chime in.

Jason
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Old January 25, 2013, 08:41 PM   #5
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Yep, it's an M&P. You'll also see this called a "Pre-Model 10", since it's the model that later evolved to become the Model 10.

Based on the 1914 patent date, yours is obviously from some time after that. I have the same gun in the 472XXX serial number range, and mine is from the late 1920s / early 1930s, so yours is from before then - possibly early- to mid 1920s?

Edit - I confused your serial number and the number inside the crane. Since your serial number is 565XXX, it would have been made after mine, not before it. So you're probably looking at something from the 1930s.

Last edited by ScottRiqui; January 25, 2013 at 10:58 PM.
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:50 PM   #6
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I agree that it was manufactured in the late twenties/early thirties.
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:55 PM   #7
James K
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565xxx would be after 472xxx, but the late 1920's early 1930's would be about right.

That gun has the old type hammer block which was not reliable, so many folks suggest carrying it with an empty chamber under the hammer.

Jim
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:55 PM   #8
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Good five screw S&W .38 Spl. Fair amount of bluing still on it to.

I have the 'I' frame .32 version made in 1912, yes bi-planes were just coming into use.

What history those guns saw!

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Old January 26, 2013, 04:41 AM   #9
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Hickok45 just posted a video yesterday on youtube with a very similar probably same exact gun. A "Pre model10". If you havent check out that vid you should search him and it should be his latest video on his channel was very educational. Pretty neat revolver. I hope to get one some day. Apparently there are around 3 million of them.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:05 AM   #10
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You've got an earlyish Model of 1905 4th change, possibly one of the last ones made with the hard rubber stocks, which were dropped as an option in, I believe, the early 1930s.

This model is, in many ways, the definitive Military and Police, as it was the last of the pre-WW II engineering change revolvers and, when war came, provided yoeman's service not only for the United States but for many of our allies, as well.

Unfortunately, yours has seen some hard storage in that the finish is pretty thin and it appears that you have a significant amount of pitting on the barrel, but the stocks are in very nice condition with very little wear.

That indicates to me a gun that was shot little but stored in a leather holster for long periods of time.

My guess is that a look down the barrel will show strong lands and grooves and a nice shine.

The nice thing is, though, that the bluing remains blue - it hasn't gone over to the brown flaky patina that is indicative of even worse storage or even harder use. I have, IIRC (it's in the safe, I'll dig it out later) a third model made in the early 1920s that has gone all patina on me. It is mechanically very nice, but it looks as if it were browned, not blued.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:32 AM   #11
Jim Watson
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I like the fine old names like Military and Police, with the year model and change number given for precise identification. The term "pre-model 10" just kind of sets my teeth on edge.
I got lectured on the S&W board. It seems that in some collecting circles, "pre-model 10" specifically means a post-WWII short action Military & Police made before they started stamping model numbers in 1957 but mechanically identical to one with model number. They do not use the pre-model xx term for older guns like this one.
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Old January 26, 2013, 09:36 AM   #12
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I got the same lecture, once.

My response was... feisty.

And I've continued to refer to pre-1957 guns as pre-Model 10s.

Just to tick them off.
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Old January 26, 2013, 11:04 AM   #13
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Well, out of sheer cantankerousness, you can call it what you want...you would be wrong.
One thing is for sure..the OP's M&P is a nice example I would like to shoot.
Here is my Pre-Model 10...It dates to 1957, but missed getting stamped Model 10.
I got it off Armslist last year for $225.
Saw it online, and noticed it was located 10min from my house. I was home with it 45 min after first spotting it.
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Old January 26, 2013, 05:56 PM   #14
Mike Irwin
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OK, how about this...

I'll just call them Victory Models.

All of them.

And it wouldn't be incorrect to call a circa 1920 Military and Police a pre Model 10 any more than it would be to call a 1980 Model 10 a Military and Police.

The Military and Police is the commonality throughout the entire history of the gun, starting with the Model of 1899.

Everything else is just pish posh convenience window dressing.

Nice Victory Model, by the way.

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Old January 26, 2013, 07:21 PM   #15
amd6547
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Sorry...no "V" prefix serial, no lanyard loop, no parkarized finish...nope, not a victory model.
I just call it a "Thirty-Eight".
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Old January 28, 2013, 07:53 AM   #16
Mike Irwin
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Details details.

Thirty eight...

Nice .380-200!
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
And I've continued to refer to pre-1957 guns as pre-Model 10s.

Just to tick them off.
And it would since it's inaccurate.

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Old January 28, 2013, 05:35 PM   #18
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I question whether one can legitimately refer to any revolver with a swing-out cylinder as a "Very Old S&W Revolver." IMO to get into the "very old" category one would need to have a top-break or bottom-break design.


Nice piece, BTW.
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Old January 28, 2013, 05:42 PM   #19
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" IMO to get into the "very old" category one would need to have a top-break or bottom-break design."

S&W made breaktops right up to 1940.
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Old January 28, 2013, 05:54 PM   #20
Mike Irwin
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"And it would since it's inaccurate."

And, as I noted earlier, no, it's really not, because all it is is a collective identifier. It tells you nothing specific about the gun other than it's a K frame .38 Special made prior to 1957.

In that sense, it's the exact same as grouping all of the many variations of post-1957 guns into the "Model 10" class.

Calling one of these a model 10 tells you only the most very basic thing about the gun -- it's a K frame .38. Other than that, nothing.

Is it a heavy barrel? Is it a pencil barrel? Round butt? Square butt? 10-2? 10-6? 10-792,289? Is it even one of the very few .357 Magnum or 9mms?

Even the term Victory Model is FAR more specific and far more informative about exactly what attributes a particular K frame M&P might have.

Sometimes people get FAR too hung up on terms that are used collectively as a class name.

If you, or someone else, were to argue that only the post war, short-action M&Ps made between 1946 and 1957 are pre-Model 10s, then you may have a firmer argument.
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Old January 28, 2013, 06:52 PM   #21
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Hmmm. I have an S&W that is obviously a pre-Model 10. I once called it a Model 1 Second Issue, but that was before I got eddikated by the eggspurts. And it certainly is PRE Model 10. About a century PRE.

Jim
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Old January 29, 2013, 12:13 AM   #22
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It looks like what we called a S&W 5 screw (4 sideplate screws plus the one that holds the cyl. stop spring).
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Old January 29, 2013, 03:00 AM   #23
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Mike,

About everything in your post was off base except "the" and "and". You used those words correctly but all else was wrong.

Except this bit...

Quote:
If you, or someone else, were to argue that only the post war, short-action M&Ps made between 1946 and 1957 are pre-Model 10s, then you may have a firmer argument.
That is exactly what a pre model 10 is.

We don't call 1911s "pre-Model 1911A1s" just as we don't call a Gen 1 Glock a "pre Gen 4". Same as we don't call all planes that aren't 767s "non 767s". This is because it actually makes a difference in the history of the gun and of firearms.

The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors. Some figure that all M&Ps should just be called an M&P till the model 10, or Pre model 27 or whichever designation began. (In the case of the M27 it began life as the Registered Magnum but S&W ended that practice at a certain point so there was a space of several years where the gun was produced as the ".357 Magnum" before it became the M27).

It does make a difference what things are called and it has for years in the case of lines of guns that small libraries of books have been written about.

A lot of shooters may not know or care but you can bet such differences do matter over to the Colt Forums, the S&W forum, Ruger forum, Sig and Glock forums, etc.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; January 29, 2013 at 03:05 AM.
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Old January 29, 2013, 03:56 AM   #24
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Ahhh the correct terminology of collectors. I own a S&W M&P Model of 1899 in .38 Special. Made right at the end before the Model of 1902 was introduced. But here is the fun part. It has four screws. So I guess that makes it a pre 5-Screw 4-Screw.














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Old January 29, 2013, 08:28 AM   #25
Mike Irwin
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"We don't call 1911s "pre-Model 1911A1s" just as we don't call a Gen 1 Glock a "pre Gen 4". Same as we don't call all planes that aren't 767s "non 767s". This is because it actually makes a difference in the history of the gun and of firearms.

Wow. That's a monumental failure of an example.

1911 was the OFFICIAL US MILITARY designation for that particular model.

1911A1 was the OFFICIAL US MILITARY designation for that particular model.

Come on... I think you're bright enough to recognize that "pre-Model 10" is NOT an official designation from the factory or any governmental agency.

It is exactly what I said it was -- a convenient, collective way of identifying a group of guns, the exact same way that the term Victory Model is used.

Oh, by the way, Victory Model was NEVER an official S&W or Government designation, so by your apparent logic it is absolute anathma and should never, never, never ever be used, right?


"The "pre model 10" designation is a bit controversial with some S&W collectors... A lot of shooters may not know or care but you can bet such differences do matter over to the Colt Forums, the S&W forum, Ruger forum, Sig and Glock forums, etc.

Wait, now I'm really confused... Are you saying that some collectors USE the term pre-Model 10, while others do not, and there's controversy about it? How could there be controversy about it (and why would there be controversy in the Ruger forums? Who cares what they think?) IF it wasn't used.

But I thought you've been taking the line that no one uses it. So you're saying that some DO use it?

So, Yes? No? Yes? No? No? Yes? Yes? Maybe?

Ok, time for you to face some simple facts...

1. Is Pre-Model 10 an official factory designation? No. We've established that.

2. Is pre-Model 10 used as an identifer, even by some well respected members of the S&W collecting community? Yes.

3. Given 1 combined with 2, we're left with the simple fact that no one has, or can exercise, absolute the authority to say "yes, that's right," or "No, that's wrong."


"If you, or someone else, were to argue that only the post war, short-action M&Ps made between 1946 and 1957 are pre-Model 10s, then you may have a firmer argument."

That is exactly what a pre model 10 is.

I love it when the fish gobbles down the bait...

How can it be a pre-Model 10? That was never an official factory designation, so based on your strident absolutism, that phrase is verboten and those guns made between 1946 and 1957 can only be Military and Police Hand Ejectors...

Tsk tsk tsk...
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Last edited by Mike Irwin; January 29, 2013 at 08:43 AM.
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