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Old January 27, 2013, 06:07 PM   #26
terzmo
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I don't see why the police are different from the average joe in a few ways. Of course they have volunteered to uphold the law but, in My reasoning, most times they are responding to an after the fact situation and ALSO responding in force.(lotsa cops,lights and sirens)

Joe average on the otherhand, must deal directly with the situation,whatever that may be.

Understood the police do get into situations where the badguys are still there. So they are authorized superior firepower(and I don't deny that) while the average joe is limited and maybe outnumbered.
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Old January 27, 2013, 08:33 PM   #27
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When you look, the real mission of LE is to verify a violation of law(crime) and gather evidence to find the person or persons that did the crime. Then to arrest the person and let the court system punish if guilty.

To serve and protect is to remove the bad guy based on his past behavior to prevent another future crime. Needing high firepower during the conflict is for protection of the officer. Is not the same true for everyone?

The public does not understand the real mission of governments because of the false belief that they will protect you and me.

Example: The real mission of the fire department is to protect the surrounding properties. Not the building that is on fire. Sometimes extinquishment of the burning building will protect the surrounding properties. Usually the burning building is a loss by the time that the fire department arrives and any effert to save it is a waste of manpower, water and resourses.

Same thing in LE. The crime is done. Figure out who, arrest them and let the court punish. Thus, we are protected from the person doing it to someone else, again.

You must be responsible for the propection for you, your family and your property.
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Old January 28, 2013, 11:58 AM   #28
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You mean the mission of the fire department is not to put out fires? So if my house is on fire, I shouldn't bother to call the fire department?
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Old January 28, 2013, 12:16 PM   #29
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The motorcycle cops nearby carry M4 carbines and big magazines on their bikes. Heh.

I don't need one, but they do...
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Old January 28, 2013, 12:26 PM   #30
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Quote:
You mean the mission of the fire department is not to put out fires? So if my house is on fire, I shouldn't bother to call the fire department?
Well, your neighbors would certainly appreciate it if you called, since it's going to make a bigger difference to them than it will to you.

Unless you can notify the fire department *very* early on, the damage to your house is probably going to be about the same either way - it'll either burn to the foundation one way, or it'll be half burnt-out and completely waterlogged the other way.
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:21 PM   #31
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Thank you, Scott for the observation on a fire. A fire department is reactive, so they are already behind when the alarm bells ring. If a building is over 50%involved, then it is more productive to protect the surroundings. You can put out any fire with a coffee cup full of water. Either at the start or the very end.

While in a Rad-f Course in December, I was told that Florida Troopers and some other Florida Officers were going to be issued Army surplus M-16s. Supposeldy, the guns are early and do not have forward assist. One person said that he had aproblem with the guns because one would not fit in his patrol car's trunk. He drives one of the Dodge Chargers.
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:25 PM   #32
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What else is in his trunk? Given an empty or near empty trunk, even the smallest little hybrid would have to have room for an AR.
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Old January 28, 2013, 04:58 PM   #33
Willie Sutton
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^^ Empty?

You ever see a patrol car's trunk?


Willie

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Old January 28, 2013, 06:20 PM   #34
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I've only been in a patrol car once, for a courtesy ride after giving a witness statement after a car accident cost me my bus ride to work. And then it was just the front seat. I'm not saying it should be empty, but was legitimately asking how much other junk they carried around with them.. I assume a fairly hefty response kit with first aid, and various other tools, spike strips and what not...
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Old January 28, 2013, 08:56 PM   #35
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Many if not most PDs/SOs have been arming their people w/ ARs or M16s since the North Hollywood Shootout of 1997. The shotguns were sold.
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Old January 28, 2013, 09:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
You ever see a patrol car's trunk?
My soon to be Brother-in-Law's patrol car isn't so much a police car as it is a rolling general store.

Mini-14, Mossberg 500, big ole first aid kit, road flares, jack, those little signal triangle things, rain suit, etc. etc.

Our Sheriff's Dept. has carried Mini-14s since the mid-80s. Out here response times are in the 14 to 25 minute range, and there may only be one Deputy per sector per shift, so in affect the Deputy is his own back up.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:00 AM   #37
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I have asked the question:

So a LEO exemption of the proposed Fienstein AWB is saying that a the life of a police officer confronting a suspect is more important than my life was5 minutes before when that same suspect kicked in my door and shot me?

And I get the same answer every time:

No, but police officers are highly trained!

I proceed to laugh out loud!

They don't have an argument that Cops for some reason deserve semi-auto weapons and civilians don't! Simple.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:17 AM   #38
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Even here in the "Vanilla-Ville" Northern Chicago Suburbs I see AR's in Police Cars all the time, more so than even shotguns now a days.

I was visiting my Dad over in Northfield about a year ago, I drive right by the "back" of the police station on my way home. While waiting at a stopsign I watched an officer going on duty removing his AR from a bag and "checking it out" before putting it back in his trunk. BTW for those not familiar with this area Northfield is a small town of about 5000 people with about zero violent crimes per year. The PD consists of 21 officers but they only have about half as many cars. Most of what they do consists of Traffic stops and DV calls.
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:22 AM   #39
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Not many volunteer police officers in my area. For education and safety level of job they are paid above average.

Quote:
I think the issue is that some departments just don’t have the money to provide one for each officer, but allow them to buy their own.
DOD will send any CLEO that requests it a crate full of guns at no charge. As many as the department has full time officers.
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:04 PM   #40
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I knew a man who retired from the Franklin County (MO) Sherrifs Dept in ~1970. He told me he carried a variety of rifles in his car over the years. In the early days it was a Remington model 8 (one of the earliest semi-auto rifles). Later he had an M1 Carbine and also a lever action in 35 Remington (presumably a marlin 336).
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Old January 30, 2013, 03:26 PM   #41
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I seen a city cop here a few years ago with what looked like a high-point carbine/kel-tech type carbine in the trunk of his cruiser.... Not sure what else he had in there or if it was his, or been recently confiscated. Oh well, i'm bored
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:01 AM   #42
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I have asked the question:

So a LEO exemption of the proposed Fienstein AWB is saying that a the life of a police officer confronting a suspect is more important than my life was5 minutes before when that same suspect kicked in my door and shot me?

And I get the same answer every time:

No, but police officers are highly trained!

I proceed to laugh out loud!

They don't have an argument that Cops for some reason deserve semi-auto weapons and civilians don't! Simple.


Because police are sent to, and expected to respond to, and address, situations that require they have access to long guns. I have been on several calls where I was faced by bad guys with rifles, probably a half a dozen over the years, doesn't happen every day. I needed a rifle to protect myself, but also to prevent the "bad guy" from getting away and killing someone else. Like your family, or my family. I'm not saying my life is more important than yours (except that police represent a civilizied society, and an attack on police should be seen as an attack on your community). Just that I have to go to these calls, and place myself in harms way.

I have never been faced with a situation that required a rifle in my personal life. Not once. Not that I think you shouldn't own them, just my own experience of never needing any type of firearm in my personal life, only professionally.
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:44 AM   #43
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Trooper,

Thanks for your service to your community. We all appriciate the dangers and unknowns associated with your job. Thanks again.

Because you have never needed a rifle in your personal life in no way insures that you may never need one in the future. The last call you responded to that required a rifle, that victim probably wished they had had one before you arrived. See, victims don't have a choice about being in those situations. You, ultimately, do have a choice (and I am glad you choose to go, put your life in danger for others).

Nurses, doctors, drinking water plant operators, artists, bus drivers, firemen, teachers, etc. ... along with police - all represent civilized society. An attack on any of them is an attack on civilization and community. Police seek out the bad guys, where as the rest of us, for the most part, don't go looking for trouble. That is the distinction we need to remember.

The point I was making, is that many who would outlaw my rifle use the "training" cops get as an argument that they are more responsible with, and therefore deserve their rifles.

I tell anyone that cares to listen, that police "training" in long guns is no better than the "training" I have received since the age of 6. So that argument makes me laugh.

Sure, your tactical training on building entry and hostage situations may be stronger, but I would bet the ranch that my gun handeling and marksmanship (and safety) would compare to most police forces in this country. And I suspect many others in the "gun community" have the same skills.

Again, thanks for your service to your community. We need more people like you who CHOOSE to put themselves in harms way for the good of the community!
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Old January 31, 2013, 11:05 AM   #44
Xfire68
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Quote:
I have never been faced with a situation that required a rifle in my personal life. Not once.
I hope you never do.

Your only a tiny drop in the bucket. There are 100 million others out there that at some time may have needed one.

There is also the times when the need for a rifle is much much more likely to be needed. Anytime when there is a break down of our community's. Natural disaster and rioting come to mind.

You may not live in a area that has ever been effected by any kind of civil unrest but, there are some that have and you really never know where it will hit next.
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Old January 31, 2013, 11:48 AM   #45
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As for the better trained argument, just point to the recent scandal regarding Ian Birk, and John T Williams. Birk was absolutely screwed over and scapegoated. But the government found that he wasn't trained well enough. It's highly offensive to be told police officers are better trained, until they shoot and kill someone who refuses to respond to a lawful order to put down a knife, and which point they weren't trained well enough. Yeesh.

Conn Trooper- do you personally believe the public does not have a right to the same handgun and rifle you carry around professionally? I'm not looking to jump on you for your answer either way, mostly curious.

My personal view is that the NFA is somewhat tolerable.. the government may have the fully automatic M4 in common use, but the soldiers don't buy their own, or take it home at night. Law Enforcement do with the semi-automatic AR-15 and the semi-automatic Glock/Sig/1911/assorted Side Arms.
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Old January 31, 2013, 01:29 PM   #46
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"I think the first real push to do this was the Norco shootout. After that departments started looking for Mini-14's, M16's, and AR-15's. that was about 1980."

This was true on the left coast but not the right coast. I remember that shootout as I was a fairly new LEO at the time. My agency in VA, and many around us, never saw the first patrol rifle until the 2000's. Except for SWAT of course. We were using our handguns and 12 ga's for years. Even now, at least at my former agency, only a few off each squad carries a long rifle. We did go to Slugs (and Buckshot) for the 870's a number of years back which was nice as they are pretty damn accurate up to a certain distance but it's still not a rifle.
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Old January 31, 2013, 01:35 PM   #47
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This may have been one of the most professional/respectful responses to someone that they disagree with as I have ever seen. Nice job Wyoredman.

Trooper,

Thanks for your service to your community. We all appriciate the dangers and unknowns associated with your job. Thanks again.

Because you have never needed a rifle in your personal life in no way insures that you may never need one in the future. The last call you responded to that required a rifle, that victim probably wished they had had one before you arrived. See, victims don't have a choice about being in those situations. You, ultimately, do have a choice (and I am glad you choose to go, put your life in danger for others).

Nurses, doctors, drinking water plant operators, artists, bus drivers, firemen, teachers, etc. ... along with police - all represent civilized society. An attack on any of them is an attack on civilization and community. Police seek out the bad guys, where as the rest of us, for the most part, don't go looking for trouble. That is the distinction we need to remember.

The point I was making, is that many who would outlaw my rifle use the "training" cops get as an argument that they are more responsible with, and therefore deserve their rifles.

I tell anyone that cares to listen, that police "training" in long guns is no better than the "training" I have received since the age of 6. So that argument makes me laugh.

Sure, your tactical training on building entry and hostage situations may be stronger, but I would bet the ranch that my gun handeling and marksmanship (and safety) would compare to most police forces in this country. And I suspect many others in the "gun community" have the same skills.

Again, thanks for your service to your community. We need more people like you who CHOOSE to put themselves in harms way for the good of the community!
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Old January 31, 2013, 07:31 PM   #48
Conn. Trooper
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Wyoredman, I am not disagreeing with you, I'm only relating why I want a rifle for professional use, not that I think you shouldn't have one.
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Old January 31, 2013, 07:38 PM   #49
Conn. Trooper
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Conn Trooper- do you personally believe the public does not have a right to the same handgun and rifle you carry around professionally? I'm not looking to jump on you for your answer either way, mostly curious.

Not at all. I don't have anything that every other resident of CT. couldn't own. My rifle is a regular old Colt M4 in post ban configuration. There is no exemption for cops in CT. The state and towns can own whatever they want, but I can't.

In my opinion, most people need more training (cops included). I would trade all the registration, permits and BS rules surrounding guns for a training requirement. I know that could lead to an ever increasing amount of training being required until its no longer affordable (which would be its own form of gun control), but some people scare me when I go to a public range.
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Old January 31, 2013, 10:26 PM   #50
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Aren't you a State guy? Trooper?

And if you want to get terrified, come to the range near me. They rent guns. And they're on the edge of a neighborhood that are either recent immigrants or work visa holders. Yay, go them and all, but it's really terrifying watching them get their first taste of 2nd amendment freedom. Sometimes it seems like the only thing they don't sweep the muzzle over is the target.
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