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Old January 27, 2013, 08:30 PM   #76
youngunz4life
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I lock my guns up to avoid a tragedy and to always know where they are. If I leave one out near the sofa where I was sitting when i go to catch a movie(recently saw "Parker" w/Jason Statham), I might leave the weapon out. Of course I have a great alarm and my house, doors, & windows are always secure amongst other things. Basically my safe isn't even for thieves...I don't have enough weapons/valuables. I am just happy to know if some idiot kid fired the weapon it wouldn't be in my home...it would be wherever he lugged the safe.

If someone breaks into my house and steals my gun he is liable for any and all issues that arise from that point on 150%. It isn't my fault. It is my responsibility(in my opinion) to make sure the gun are secured so nobody gets a hold of it whereas an accidental or negligent discharge can take place or some other tragedy. I believe my safe accomplishes this due to an electronic code as the only way to correctly open it. The long guns are stored in a locked case.
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Old January 28, 2013, 01:32 PM   #77
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The true tragedy is that lawful owners must once again be punished... Same old dance.
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:01 PM   #78
lcpiper
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Kids are grown, wife and I live alone.

One on my desk by my computer where I spend my free time.

One on my nightstand and a shotgun under the mattress for nighttime emergencies.

One by the front door out of sight but convenient, yes I do answer the door with it behind my back.

The best of the rest just fit in my safes, the odd balls are store in gun cases in a closet because a 12GA Bolt Action Goose Gun is too much gun for you
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:52 PM   #79
Gaerek
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Quote:
Please post a source... Id like to read the specifics and who claims it to be such. Im not saying its not true but I have never seen a credible source on it.
My source is common sense. Someone with a criminal record cannot buy a gun. I'm assuming, of course, that NICS denies them. I'm sure a small number were purchased legally by the criminal (perhaps before they had a criminal record), Or maybe due to a fault in NICS, but the vast majority, common sense dictates, do not. Keep in mind that a person to person sale to a felon is still an illegal sale, whether the seller knew it or not (though it is a legal grey area whether he'll get in trouble if he didn't know).

As for a credible source, I do not have one, and honestly, don't feel like looking. I know I've read secondary sources that mention it, but never seen actual statistics. I'm just curious, how else could a criminal (assuming NICS is 100%, which we know it's probably not, and I already said a small number could have been done this way) get a gun if it wasn't purchased, or stolen from a law abiding citizen? Smuggled in from Mexico I suppose? Though most guns go South...not North.

EDIT: I also want to make clear, I do not believe in mandating people to keep guns in a safe. That just makes gun ownership more of a burden, especially for those that might need one, and don't have a whole lot of money. All I'm trying to say is, secure your weapons as much as you reasonable can, within your means. I would be adamantly against any laws that mandated otherwise.

Last edited by Gaerek; January 28, 2013 at 02:58 PM.
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:57 PM   #80
ChasingWhitetail91
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I don't own a safe, that's what my firearms are for The only reason I would buy a safe is if I had children in my home or didn't trust my nieghbors while I was away.
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:13 PM   #81
David White
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake View Post
Koda94, why don't you pull some numbers on street racing fatalities, and then get back to us about whether there might be "assault cars"?
You mean like this...?
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1359403862.000734.jpg
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Old January 28, 2013, 03:19 PM   #82
No1der
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Here is all I will say about the locking up guns part.

I grew up around my Fathers gun(s) and it was always loaded and chambered. I knew where it was but I never felt like it was anything "special" (from a child's perspective) because my dad would let me handle the gun any time I asked him if I could.

Naturally it wasn't loaded when he let me handle it in the house but the fact that it wasn't some mysterious "cool" thing made me not really think anything of it. I never tried to play with it, I knew what it was, how it worked and what it could do so I had respect towards the weapon.

Each family has to figure out what's best for them and I'm only sharing how I was brought up.

As a child, a handgun was NOT a mystery to me so I never felt the need to "play" with it when my dad wasn't around. This worked for our family and it may be the answer for some but not others.

Not proposing this as a method for everyone but for my family it worked just fine.

It was also sort of out of necessity as it was important for me, at a very young age, to be familiar with handling a handgun and even being able to use it defensively if a situation arose.

I was handling my dad's guns since I was 5 years old and shooting them since the age of 6.
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Old January 28, 2013, 06:16 PM   #83
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Gaerek, the idea that most guns go south was debunked rather heavily when the methods the feds used in their study were revealed. They only ran checks on guns that were serialized according to US law. Once that was determined, IE that the sample checked were cherry picked from the Mexican bin of guns, the percentage dropped from over 90% to around 17%.

Then, look at all the M16 pattern weapons in use by the Zeta cartel. Let's see... who founded the Zetas? Oh, yeah - former Mexican Special Forces officers. Think they may have acquired some of their weaponry from Mexican Army armories?

Then, of course, the US supported sides in conflicts in Nicaragua and El Salvador for many years. I wonder why M16, M1 carbine, and 1911 pattern weapons might be in circulation?

Meanwhile, the former USSR had typically supported the other sides. Now where other than US gun stores and citizens could cartels get AK47 pattern guns?

China will sell weapons to anybody. Cheap.

NFA weapons from the US cost thousands. Would I, as a theoretical cartel guy, spend $6K on a pre-ban M16, or $150 on a black market Salvadoran M16? Hmmmm... tough one.

So, please explain your comment about most guns going south?
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Old January 28, 2013, 08:50 PM   #84
trg42wraglefragle
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Whether or not keeping guns in a safe will stop a determined criminal or not is almost not important.

Remember the antis aren't logical thinking people, its there feelings that count not logic, but even its not just the anti that you need to keep quite.
Its the majority of the population that the antis are getting onside with that will be the ones that force politicians to make legislation on gun control.

Politicians aren't going to have 70% of the population screaming for gun control but the rest convince them otherwise, politicians are going to do what will get them votes, not whats right.
(70% being a guessed figure).

People should do everything they possibly can to convince antis, and the rest that gun owners are doing everything they possibly can to shut them up.

Yes a determined criminal would most likely be able to break into a safe, but if someones in to just grab a few things and go, isn't going to take the time to find your safe and then try break into it.
And to protect children from guns, as children are well known for messing with things, and if they find a loaded gun, or their friend finds one they are going to most likely play with it.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:03 AM   #85
Gaerek
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Quote:
So, please explain your comment about most guns going south?
I suppose I stand corrected.

The Border Patrol specifically states, however, that they are looking for drugs coming North, and Guns and Money going South. Beyond that, I don't really have a comment.

However, my original statement was in how weapons get into criminals hands. Most armed robbers don't get M16's from Zeta cartel. They get their Glock Foh-tay from law abiding John Doe...either from stealing it, or making him think they're a good law abiding citizen and buying from said John Doe. In that respect, the guns going south comment isn't really pertinant, and I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.

EDIT: I'm not sure where NFA firearms entered the discussion by the way. I was talking about guns getting in the hands of criminals through theft, and through law abiding citizens. Most armed criminals don't have NFA guns. Some certainly do, I'm sure, in the way you're showing, but the VAST majority of criminals guns come from people like you and me.
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Old January 29, 2013, 12:08 PM   #86
MLeake
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The Border Patrol also has a bean bag loaded as the first round in their shotguns; this is because the Border Patrol does what Janet Napolitano and the administration tell them to do whether or not it makes sense.

I would imagine direct theft (by the criminal), indirect theft (criminal buying from a fence), and known unlawful sales (unscrupulous pawn shop guy, or a friend of the criminal, sells to the criminal) far outweigh guns obtained from law-abiding citizens.
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Old January 29, 2013, 03:31 PM   #87
Gaerek
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Quote:
I would imagine direct theft (by the criminal), indirect theft (criminal buying from a fence), and known unlawful sales (unscrupulous pawn shop guy, or a friend of the criminal, sells to the criminal) far outweigh guns obtained from law-abiding citizens.
Whoa there, let's go back to the topic at hand here. It was, essentially that we should lock our guns up as much as we can when we aren't using/carrying them. The logic being that it will help prevent theft (houses are easy to break into, safes not as much).

When I said that criminals get their guns from law abiding citizens, this is what I was referring to.

Direct Theft - Who are they stealing from? Law abiding citizens.

Indirect Theft - Where did the fence get the gun? A criminal. Where did that criminal get the gun? Most likely (certainly, not always) from a theft (if they're using a fence to off load hot items) of a law abiding citizen.

Unlawful Sales - This is the only one of the 3 you mentioned where they aren't getting the guns, necessarily from a law abiding citizen. And in some cases, they still are (good guy sells to a bad guy, for example).

The point I was trying to hammer home was that if you want to help keep guns out of criminals hands, making sure your guns are locked up and secured, besides being behind a locked front door, will make a great first step.

That's all I meant. Nothing about NFA. Nothing about cartels, and drug lords. Just about where armed criminals most likely get guns from...they originate from a law abiding citizen, who knowing he's protected from legal liability by keeping his guns behind a locked front door, doesn't secure his guns, and then he has a break in and they get stolen. There's no way to substantiate this since most gun thefts don't get reported (I've heard anywhere between only 10% to 30% are actually reported).

Guns in criminals hands have to come from somewhere. Assuming that NICS is 100% (I know it's not, but the false negative rate of NICS can't be substantiated either), a criminal can't buy one, he'll get a NICS rejection. As you said, those are the only three options, and most guns within those three options come from theft of a law abiding citizen.

Quote:
The Border Patrol also has a bean bag loaded as the first round in their shotguns; this is because the Border Patrol does what Janet Napolitano and the administration tell them to do whether or not it makes sense.
I agree with your sentiment here, but this is an Ad Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy. Just because Big Sister says load your first round as a bean bag, does not mean everything the Border Patrol does is bad. But I agree, I don't completely trust what they are doing either.
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Old January 29, 2013, 03:36 PM   #88
MLeake
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They may also have bought guns before they became prohibited persons; they may have passed NICS checks because states have not all been reporting in a uniform manner (for example, a judge in Maine just ordered her court to forward NICS related paperwork from now on - they had not been doing so prior because while the Feds want the info, they did not fund the request, and the court in Maine had no money to process and send the appropriate info all this time); they may have exchanged drugs or other goods for guns from people who the system does not realize should be prohibited persons.

On the other hand, guns have been stolen in large numbers via such methods as smashing trucks through the walls of gun shops.

One would think there should actually be a government metric showing how many guns used in crimes had been reported stolen. Perhaps you should look that up, Gaerek, since it is your argument that the number constitutes a significant percentage.
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Old January 29, 2013, 04:07 PM   #89
Gaerek
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Sure thing, here ya go.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/fireviol.txt

And if you don't feel like reading it, here's a quote:

Quote:
According to the latest available data, those
who use guns in violent crimes rarely purchase
them directly from licensed dealers; most guns
used in crime have been stolen or transferred
between individuals after the original purchase.
Amazing, that jives with what I was saying.

That's not enough? Ok, how about this:

http://extranosalley.com/?p=10368

Here's the important part to get out of this:

Quote:
One thing is for certain. There are very few reports of gun crimes committed with a gun the shooter purchased at “Joes Sporting Goods,” while there are great many reported gun crimes where the source of the weapon is officially “unknown.”
Unknown origin? Couldn't be because it wasn't reported stolen? Or maybe had a serial number filed off? Nah, couldn't be.

And what about this?

http://www.firearmsid.com/feature%20...in%20crime.htm

You absolutely cannot deny that stolen firearms are a source of guns for a criminals...either through a fence, or personally stolen. There's precious little we can do, by ourselves, to curb criminals with guns. Keeping your guns secured is one, relatively easy, relatively cheap way of doing that. If you don't want to do it, well, that's on you, and that's why I have guns...to protect myself against criminals that do also.

The bottom line here is that statistics for the number of stolen guns used in crimes is skewed horribly for many reasons. One is the lack of reporting of stolen firearms. Two is many crimes (including those that use guns, such as murder, rape armed robbery, etc.) aren't ever solved. Three is there is no requirement for local/state police to report any of the data of whether a stolen gun was used in a crime...just that a gun was used in a crime. Can I prove my point? No, not completely, but you can't tell me that guns stolen from citizens like you and me aren't used in very many crimes either. (If you could, I'd do what you told me to do, and prove it...)
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Old January 29, 2013, 04:26 PM   #90
eldermike
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Might sound a bit crazy to this generation but here it is. I am 63, just for reference purpose. We have taken this gun safety thing way to far. Gun safety is: Treat all guns as though they are loaded, never point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it.........those type things. Now, how I keep my guns in my home is no persons business.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:25 PM   #91
patrickmn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eldermike
Might sound a bit crazy to this generation but here it is. I am 63, just for reference purpose. We have taken this gun safety thing way to far. Gun safety is: Treat all guns as though they are loaded, never point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it.........those type things. Now, how I keep my guns in my home is no persons business.
I agree.

That said, my guns are locked in a safe when they're not with me or I'm not home. I would not be surprised if two thieves with a crow bar and a dolly could have that bolted-down safe out of the house in less than five minutes. Safes are made to keep honest people out of your stuff. Anybody who breaks into a house with locked windows and locked doors is anything but honest.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:44 AM   #92
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Its been stated many times here that gun deaths by scary black rifles only account for a small percentage of death by gun. What is the largest? Handguns - pistols or revolvers. If the anti's want to have a serious discussion about stopping death by gun that's where they should start. I would never propose banning any guns but instead look at where these thugs get their weapons. It's been proposed that most of them are stolen. Stolen from who? Legal gun owners like us that's who. How can you prevent criminals from getting stolen guns. Increase the penalty for possessing a stolen gun? Maybe, but we see how well other laws work. How about we lock up our guns so the average smash and grab thief can't get them? Seems simple and logical to me.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:56 AM   #93
Wyoredman
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Most of my guns are locked in a safe. Not because I am afraid that they will be stolen and used in a crime, but because if they are stolen or my home catches fire, I will be out alot of money! The safe serves a secondary purpose of keeping guns away from my daughters friends and crooked folks who would take things not belonging to them. The primary purpose of my safe is to protect my assets.
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Old January 30, 2013, 11:59 AM   #94
Frank Ettin
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It's not just about thieves stealing our guns. It's also about the tragic results of unauthorized access to guns, like this, this and this.
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Old January 30, 2013, 12:09 PM   #95
Jimboski
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Keep 'em safe

I agree with having atleast one firearm on your person at all times, otherwise whats the use of having one, and those handprint safes are an attractive idea...
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Old January 30, 2013, 07:44 PM   #96
SauerGrapes
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Quote:
Might sound a bit crazy to this generation but here it is. I am 63, just for reference purpose. We have taken this gun safety thing way to far. Gun safety is: Treat all guns as though they are loaded, never point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it.........those type thing. Now, how I keep my guns in my home is no persons business.
You and I arn't very far apart in age. {57} We probably grew up in similar type homes where guns weren't locked away. We were taught that guns weren't toys to play with.

That said, gun ownership has exploded to many people that grew up in families that don't own guns. I see problems with gun safety on a regular basis at my club. A lot of people own guns that have never had any proper supervision about how to treat guns.

As far as how you ''keep your guns'' being none of our business, you are correct. If your not worried about them, why should I.
Some of us just think it's a good idea to make it as hard as possible for someone to gain access to them. If you want to leave them in sock drawers and cloths closets, knock yourself out.
Can we really take the ''gun safety thing'' to far?
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Old January 30, 2013, 08:04 PM   #97
AH.74
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I have a system where I keep select guns out of the safe for ease of access. Among these few are the ones my wife and I carry. The others are in specific places in one area of the home- not all over the place.

It's just us here, no one else. When the house will be unoccupied, even for a brief time, I get all the guns not carried and put them in the safe. This only takes me a minute to do. And then when I come home I do the reverse, again only taking a minute.

I will not leave any guns out in case of a quick break-in. They'll have to work if they want them, I'm not making it easy for them.

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is this. If we need to leave quickly, as in grabbing and bugging out the window at night (one level home), I have the guns I want right at hand, along with a small bug-out bag mostly containing ammo and mags. Guns in the safe will be left behind, and are therefore useless if you can't get to them in a time of need.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:02 PM   #98
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH.74
...It's just us here, no one else...
You never have guests or visitors? Never friends or family for a drink or meal? Never a delivery person or repairman?
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:11 PM   #99
AH.74
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Quote:
You never have guests or visitors? Never friends or family for a drink or meal? Never a delivery person or repairman?
Ok, you got me.

Except for one, all the guns I'm talking about are not in places guests would normally have access to. And we never have kids over.

So in the event that we do have these guests (trusted friends and family), that one gun is moved.

If we will be leaving with the guests, the guns are locked up before they get here.

When repairmen and delivery people will be here, they are indeed put away and I am CC'ing.
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Old January 30, 2013, 09:28 PM   #100
berettaprofessor
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I never allow my guns out of my direct control. In a safe, on my person, locked in my care, or close at hand. It's called responsibility. I just never want(ed) to be responsible when a 5 year old finds one of my guns and decides to play cowboys and indians with his friends.
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