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Old January 16, 2013, 09:56 AM   #1
BoogieMan
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Mannlicher M95

Posted this in Rifles but I think this may be a better place.

Looking at a carbine m95 in 8x56r. What do you know of them? I hear that the recoil of the rifle is "epic" and that the cartridge has very good performance. Not familiar with straight pull rifles. How does the bolt lock closed is its straight pull. I cn find plenty of Nazi ammo but I do not know if its re-loadable. As far as the rifle itself are they all Nazi finish? Would a "S" stamp signify that. As with the Mosin from another thread I am looking at a Hungarian made version.
On a side note I have my Great Grandfathers discharge papers (need translating) from his service. He wasnt a good guy from the Allies perspective. I would assume that this is the type of rifle he would have carried. I am trying to find a pic of him in uniform to see if I can identify the gun.
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Old January 16, 2013, 11:22 AM   #2
PetahW
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It has a rotary bolt head - read all about the Steyr-Mannlicher 1895 (M95), and it's variants:

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating...her-m95-e.html


.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:28 PM   #3
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The S stamp means it has the S bore barrel (.323" groove diameter).

Your grandfather did what his country said he was expected to do, that would make his service neither good nor bad, just that he was in the armed forces of his country. The victor determines who was right and who was wrong. But I seriously doubt your grandfather carried a M95, they were obsolete by the beginning of WW2, although I am sure there were still many in use.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:32 PM   #4
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the M95 was originally a long rifle, poorly balances, very long and cumbersome, analogous to a 1891 mosin nagant. the were cut down in the 30s to a smaller carbine length rifle as they were intended to be fielded by police and rear echelon troops, the nazis were nothing if not recyclers. a heavy, bulky, long combat rifle was not a necessity for someone filling those roles. the side effect of removing all that weight is a direct result of neuton's laws,forget which ones off the top of my head but "an object at rest will stay at rest until acted upon by an outside force(recoil)", and "every action has an equal and opposite reaction". as there is less weight to absorb the recoil it gets quite stiff and as it has a metal buttplate as all military weaponry of the age, it is quite stiff for most shooters.

8x56R is not a true 8mm, that is to say that the bullet diameter is slightly larger than 8x57mm mauser and most, if not all, 8mm bullets out there are actually designed for the more prolific of the two; 8mm mauser. I have heard reports but nothing substantiated that even the new production, reloadable, PRVI partizan, which is about the only game in town for 8x56R besides limited seasonal runs of hornady, actually uses the smaller 8mm bullet in their rounds, this slight difference affects accuracy and velocity in a bad way and can even result in damage to the rifling over time, many people do not care about this as they are cheaper than mosin nagants right now and just figure that a second rifle will be even easier to get a hold of. they require an en bloc clip to function, a hard to find but not impossible venture but also easy to lose if you are shooting in tall grass and you aren't paying attention to how many shots you are putting down range as it self ejects out the bottom of the rifle after the last round is chambered(not fired). without it you effectively have a single shot rifle. there are better out there but the stories that come with these are a lot more interesting than a hungarian M44 IMHO. as for the locking mechanisms behind it and reloadability of 75 year old ammunition I don't know much about it but the amount of time you would have to tumble most of that brass is extensive and I doubt you could get too many reloadings out of it as it would probably be worn pretty thin just to get the oxidation off of it.
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:40 PM   #5
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Scorch@ It was great grandfather. Austro-Hungarian. Best I can tell he was discharged 1910
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Old January 16, 2013, 12:51 PM   #6
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tahunua001@- It would seem to me that most old rifles are going to have one issue or another. Everyone jumped on the Mosin and the price of rifles has tripled, ammo is about dried up at most of the depots I know of. The M95 fires a somewhat rare round that may be dificult to load for if possible at all.
I have a Lamma Extra that shoots 9mm Largo with similar issues finding ammo. Someone else mentioned on another thread they have a center fire 22 mag that they cant get ammo for. I will have to keap looking around and see what lands in my lap. I am looking for guns from a country that to my knowledge had to arms manufacturers. Not like the US where we have dozens
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Old January 16, 2013, 01:17 PM   #7
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well if I'm not mistaken the M95 was made in budapest and stutzen(?). of course most milsurps have their highs and lows. I have yet to look ata reloading manual that has loading data for 8x56R but every single one of the hardships that I have labeled can be overcome.
1. the en bloc clips, if you are willing to compromise on original and genuine can be bought new production from numrich arms, they recently changed their website which makes it a pain to find little misc parts like enbloc clips for an M95 but they usually have them in stock and every once in a blue moon if you go there and rub your tummy and pat your head and hop up and down on one leg while whistling "heart of dixie" they will have original Nazi or earlier.

2. ammo availability is low and it's expensive and there are only two companies that I know of that make ammo for them(PRVI and Hornady). neither of these can be found at your usual online sources for ammunition(luckygunner.com, ammotogo.com, etc etc). however Cabelas does list hornady in their 'classic metric' line though I haven't seen it in stock but I'm sure they allow backorders). oppositely, jgsales.com has the PRVI 8x56R hidden away in their misc ammo section and sometimes offer the option to add a box to your order of a M95 which they almost always have in stock.

3. reloading and bullet availability: as stated I have never seen a reloading manual with data for 8x56R but just this summer I read an article in handloader magazine about reloading for old, obselete calibers and how it is becoming easier now that people are buying these cheap rifles and creating a demand for components. on it he lists companies that make bullet molds in the proper diameter, I think even one company that is doing limited runs of jacketed 8x56 bullets and a small number of reloading formulas for 8x56R if you can find that article online you would be set for reloading.
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Old January 16, 2013, 01:31 PM   #8
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aimsurplus usually has ammo for them in stock but its like 21.00 a box and ammo to go also has it available for the same price
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Old January 16, 2013, 01:47 PM   #9
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Springfield Model 511 shotgun barrel needed

i have seen a lot of discussion about the springfield model 511 shotgun but i can't find where the discussion was...i am looking for a barrel for my springfield model 511 double barrel shotgun. can anyone help me find a barrel for sale. the gun was my granddads and i would like to get it back in shooting condition so one of my sons can have it too. any help would be appreciated.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:27 PM   #10
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try the shotgun forums here at thefiringline, this forum is dedicated to C&Rs and this thread is central to a centerfire rifle and most participating in it probably have little knowledge of shotguns... the shotgun guys probably have the most knowledge.
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Old January 16, 2013, 02:41 PM   #11
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thank you! i tried to find that earlier and was unable to. can you point me in the right direction? The Firing Line Forums > ??? (not sure where from here)
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Old January 16, 2013, 03:01 PM   #12
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I think the just recently changed the name to the Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum located in the same sub forum as the rifle and black powder forums. here's a link to the proper subforum.
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Old January 17, 2013, 07:41 PM   #13
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M95

The "S" does not signify a bore of .323. It means the rifle has been modified to shoot the newer pointed bullets. The bore of the 95's is .330.

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Old January 18, 2013, 02:45 PM   #14
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Here is some handloading information. It is not mine, but I have used some of it for working up cast bullet loads.
Quote:
8x56R
2.20" case lenght
3.02" OAL w/208 gr. spitzer BT
Some load data is courtesy of Lee Precision Inc. and other contributions from members. * indicates Lee precision.
Thanks to all.

125 gr. bullet, 37.7 gr. H4198 max 42.0 gr. 3054 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 49.4 gr. H380 max 55.0 gr. 2909 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 52.1 gr. H414 max 58.0 gr. 2893 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 45.8 gr. H335 max 51.0 gr. 2891 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 42.2 gr. H322 max 47.0 gr. 2840 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 45.8 gr. 4895 max 51.0 gr. 2796 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 44.9 gr. BL-C(2) max 50.0 gr. 2789 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 41.9 gr. Reloder15 max 46.8 gr. 2760 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 40.9 gr. Reloder12 max 45.0 gr. 2720 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 50.3 gr. H450 max 56.0 gr. 2509 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 48.5 gr. H4350 max 54.0 gr. 2480 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 53.0 gr. Accur4350 max 53.0 gr. 2418 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 53.0 gr. Accur3100 max 53.0 gr. 2185 fps*
125 gr. bullet, 54.5 gr. Accur8700 max 54.5 gr. 1788 fps*

150 gr. bullet, 36.8 gr. H4198 max 41.0 gr. 2848 fps*
150 gr. bullet, 48.5 gr. H380 max 54.0 gr. 2778 fps*
150 gr. bullet, 50.3 gr. H414 max 56.0 gr. 2773 fps*

170 gr. bullet, 44.0 gr. H4895
170 gr. bullet, 41.3 gr. H4895 max 46.0 gr. 2501 fps*
170 gr. bullet, 47.6 gr. H414 max 53.0 gr. 2586 fps*
170 gr. bullet, 39.5 gr. H322 max 44.0 gr. 2555 fps*
170 gr, bullet, 44.0 gr. H380 max 49.0 gr. 2509 fps*
170 gr. bullet, 48.5 gr. H4350 max 54.0 gr. 2507 fps*

185 gr. bullet, 26.0 gr, XMP-5744

198 gr. bullet, 46.0 gr. 3031--2310 fps

200 gr. bullet, 40.7 gr. Accur 4350 max 44.0 gr. 2039 fps*
200 gr. bullet, 49.0 gr. Accur 3100 max 49.0 gr. 1980 fps*
200 gr. bullet, 54.5 gr. Accur 8700 max 54.5 gr. 1692 fps*

205 gr. bullet, 13.5 gr. Red Dot

206 gr. bullet, 45.0 gr. 3031--2300 fps

215 gr. bullet, 13.0 gr. Unigue 1400 fps

220 gr. bullet, 46.0 gr. Accur 3100 max 49.2 gr. 1946 fps*
220 gr. bullet, 39.4 gr. Accur 4350 max 42.0 gr. 1906 fps*
220 gr. bullet, 51.5 gr. Accur 8700 max 51.5 gr. 1512 fps*

225 gr. bullet, 51.2 gr. H4831 max 57.0 gr. 2346 fps*
225 gr. bullet, 44.9 gr. H414 max 50.0 gr. 2342 fps*
225 gr. bullet, 41.3 gr. H380 max 46.0 gr. 2285 fps*
225 gr. bullet, 41.3 gr. H4350 max 46.0 gr. 2221 fps*
225 gr. bullet, 44.0 gr. H450 max 49.0 gr. 2145 fps*

I've done more than a little work with 8x56R and have some experience with using milsurp IMR 4895. This powder may be a little too fast to give the best efficiency in 8x56R, but I have been satisfied with its performance. I have a hefty quantity of it and like to find uses for it. Here is some data that I have used:

205 gr. Hornady SP bullet .330

35.0 gr. IMR 4895 (milsurp)

Fed. 210 primer

Average muzzle velocity 1531

Standard deviation 13.16

This is a pretty light load and the charge could safely be raised to at least 40 gr. This is a very pleasant load to shoot.

225 gr. Hornady SP .338 resized to .330

40.0 gr. IMR 4895 (milsurp)

CCI 200 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 1796

Std. dev. 22.39


225 gr. Hornady SP .338 resized to .330

42.0 gr. IMR 4895 (milsurp)

CCI 200 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 1932

Std. dev. 19.51

Stout recoil; prints about 4 inches high at 100 yards in test rifle

I do not recommend exceeding this load

I like IMR 4350 for loading the 8x56R. As a slower powder, you can load to full charges and it still has less recoil than faster burning propellants. The slower burning powders have a longer burning curve and don't give that sharp slap of recoil.

205 gr. Hornady SP .330

48.0 gr. IMR 4350

Fed. 210 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 1868

Std. dev. 26.8

I fired this load on the Silver State Gun Club 100 yard range in Beatty, Nevada. At 100 yards, this load was perfectly centered on the paper target.

If you are really adventuresome, you can use this one:

200 gr. Hornady SP .338 resized to .330

39.0 grains of pulled-down European cut-sheet powder from milsurp Turkish 7.92x57mm ammunition (1947 date)

WW primer

Avg. muz. vel. 2045

Std. dev. 32.15

Same load as above, but using:

40.0 gr. pulled Turkish powder

Avg. muz. vel. 2157

Std. dev. 26.32

repeat test on another day:

Avg. muz. vel. 2154

Std. dev. 22.71

I do not recommend exceeding this load

Commercial Graf headstamp brass was used in all of the above loads.

No visual signs of high pressure were noted in any of these loads.

This data was all taken using milsurp M95 Steyr short rifles. Use this data at your own risk, use caution, common sense, and accepted loading practices. Your rifle is different from my rifle, etc, etc.

Since you mention Norma 205, how about this:

8x56R

225 gr. Hornady SP .338 resized to .330

46.5 gr. N205

Fed 210 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 1865

Std. dev. 8.88



200 gr. Hornady SP .338 resized to .330

48.0 gr. N205

Fed 210 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 1944

Std. dev. 28.50


200 gr. Speer spitzer .338 resized to .330

48.0 gr. N205

Fed 210 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 2008

Std. dev. 26.38

I got a little smoking on the cases using N205 that I don't like; notice that the SD opened up some using the 200 gr. bullets.

RL-15 is comparable to IMR 4895; I can get a little more speed out of RL-15 than 4895.

200 gr. Hornady SP .338 resized to .330

32.0 gr. Alliant RL-15

Fed 210 primer

Avg. muz. vel. 1638

Std. dev. 19.42

This is a nice, light load. Compared to the IMR 4895 data, above, the RL-15 is a little more efficient in that a slightly smaller quantity gives a little more velocity. Since this load doesn't fill the case, recommend shooting with "powder down" as to do otherwise will cost you around 50-80 fps.

39.5/IMR 3031 & Hornady's 205gr bullet

45.0 gr/ IMR 4064 clocked in the 2050 range, and 47.0 grains was around 2135fps.

* Lee .329" diameter 205 gr bullet w/ Hornady 32 cal GC. Lubed with Lee Liquid Alox and sized in a Lee .329 die. Alloy was wheelweights enriched with tin and linotype metal to approximate Lyman #2.
* 25 gr IMR 4198
* Winchester WLR primer

For well over 20 years, I have been using IMR 4759 powder for reduced charges in both jacketed and lead bullet loads. The following data reflects the use of that propellant.

Cast lead bullet of 200 grain weight w/gas check (Lee mold)
20.0 grains IMR 4759
WW primer
Graf case
Average muzzle velocity 1424
Standard deviation 27.53
At 50 yards, the bullet impacted about 6 inches high from point of aim. Accuracy fair.

Same load as above, but with a very hard lead bullet w/ GC cast from the Lee mold weighing 180 grains.
Average muzzle velocity 1418 fps.
Standard deviation 25.74 fps.
At 50 yards, the bullet printed 6 to 8 inches high from point of aim. Accuracy fair.

Also re-tried the following:
Cast lead bullet of 200 grains w/ gas check cast from Lee mold
16.0 gr. H2400
Remington 9 1/2 primer
Graf case
Avg. muzzle velocity 1340 fps.
At 50 yards, bullet printed 5-6 inches high from point of aim. Accuracy good.

If fired at 100 yard targets, I suspect the point of impact for all of the above would come down significantly. Heavy bullet plus reduced charge equals looping trajectory.

I also wanted to try the fairly new "Trail Boss" powder from IMR in cast bullet loads in this caliber. So, I put together the following load.

Cast lead bullet of nominal 205 grains with gas check using
Lee mold.
11.0 grains of Trail Boss
WW primer
Graf case
Avg. muzzle velocity 1118.4 fps.
Standard deviation 9.37 fps.
Note: Wonderful SD, accuracy good, but at first hard to determine as this load at 50 yards printed so high that I had to aim below the paper to get it to print. Being completely off the one inch target grids, It's difficult to say how far off point of impact this one is when fired in my M95 Stutzen. The bullet has so much in-bore time with this light load and particular powder that the muzzle has plenty of time to climb before the bullet leaves the barrel. When I am playing around with reduced loads, I like to shoot on the 50 yard range. It's easy to figure out where the bullets are going. If we took this load to the 100 yard range, it might just print more like where we wanted it, as by that time the bullet would be in its downward trajectory. I don't think I am going to spend any more time on reduced loads for rifles using "Trail Boss" as there are cheaper powders that work better for this purpose.

While at the range, I also popped off some jacketed bullet loads in this caliber, which I think I have already posted the data on. Just in case, they were:

Hornady 205 grain jacketed spire point bullet .329
48.0 grains IMR 4350
Federal 210 primer
Graf case
Avg. muzzle vel. 1809 fps

Hornady 205 grain jacketed spire point bullet .329
35.0 grains milsurp IMR 4895
Federal 210 primer
Graf case
Avg. muzzle velocity 1445
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Old January 23, 2013, 03:28 PM   #15
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I finally won an auction. I am thrilled that I have one of these old war horses coming. Money order will go out tomorrow and by next weekend I should be shooting a Hungarian made and Hungarian modified (from 8x50 to 8x56r) M1985.

I also found reloading dies for a reasonable price. Does anyone know if ammunition was also made in Hungary or only Austria?
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Old January 23, 2013, 03:56 PM   #16
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BoogieMan, did they include any clips with the rifle? If not start looking for them now, you'll need them to shoot It. If you can find some of the surplus Nazi ammo in the 10 round angled boxes they come with the clips already holding the ammo.
They are lots of fun to shoot, but can really get one's attention If your not holding It firmly enough against your shoulder.
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Old January 23, 2013, 05:15 PM   #17
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Im workling on ammo with clips. Plenty of the Nazi cliped ammo on gunbroker. I have also found bare clips on eBay.
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Old January 25, 2013, 05:27 PM   #18
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Enbloc Clips for Steyr Mannlicher M95

BoogieMan, good buy! I have two on hand, a 1918 Austrian M95 and a 1917 M95/34. They shoot like they mean it, but you gotta love them!

Don't pay premium price for the Enbloc Clips, for example two for $15 on eBay. If you are willing to spend $30 for a lot of 10, go to "e-sarco_dot_com".

Take a look from the HOME page on the left at PARTS & ACCESSORIES, then ACCESSORIES, then STRIPPER CLIPS. Look for STEYR '95 STRIPPER CLIPS.

When you buy them in qty from 3-9 they cost you $3.95 each, but any qty at 10 and above will save you $0.95 on each and every one of them.

I purchased 10 from them last month and once I saw what good condition they were in I fessed up and got 15 more. 25 clips = 125 rounds. You will get a mix of them, some have the Nazi eagle marking, others have a circled H, while other markings may come about too. Looks like they came off surplus ammo, may not have been used. Some have rust traces, but are relatively clean, like they've never hit the dirt. Well worth it.

I almost didn't want to tell anybody because I don't want e-sarco to sell these out, but the idea that a pair of these are selling for $15 on eBay just makes me mad. Buy them at e-sarco while they are available!!!
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