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Old January 24, 2013, 11:11 AM   #1
WallyM3
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Problems sizing HXP once fired 30-06.

Mixed dates, but all HXP.

Decapped, cleaned in detergent (Dawn) and rinsed, citric acid bath and rinsed, then dried over night above furnace (90 to 100 degrees). Vibrated (Dillon 2000) in mostly walnut with some corn cob and rice treated with New Shine.

Lubed with Imperial wax. Some size in a Hornady FL die with excess force applied to the handle and some won't go at all. Same with an old RCBS trim die (which currently has a case stuck in it).

I've tried several cases, both dies (until the RCBS decided it wanted to keep the case, busted rim and all) in both Co-Ax and A2 presses.

Since I have a significant number of cases, I want to solve this dilemma, if possible.

Can anyone offer a suggestion or two as to whaz going on? And how to overcome it?
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Old January 24, 2013, 11:42 AM   #2
mehavey
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Quote:
Lubed with Imperial wax....
There's the problem if you are having stuck case issues.

I like Imperial -- used it for a long time -- but then switched back to my original
RCBS Case Lube.
The difference was night and day.

I recommend that as solution.
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Old January 24, 2013, 12:14 PM   #3
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That's certainly worth giving a try.

Thanks, mehavey.
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Old January 24, 2013, 02:17 PM   #4
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I "re"discovered the joys of RCBS Case Lube when I stuck two Lake City 308 cases in my small base die.
Real Bummer.

Read that sordid thread, posts #1 through #10 here:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...mall+base+lube
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Old January 24, 2013, 03:14 PM   #5
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Well, I only read down to about 4 degrees of freedom through the links. It seems like those kind of threads go in the same general direction irrespective of subject matter.

Love the comment about data v. theory.

Since starting this exchange, I've discovered I've got a "short-chamber" Garand. (emoticon with sufficiently expressed misery not available)

Even though I can put the '06 issue on the hindmost burner, I'm going to get me some RCBS lube. It seems to seep through the discussions rather favorably. I tend to view home-brews as too clever by half...sort of a diarrhea of effort with a constipation of result with all the inexpensive purpose-packaged products available.

BTW, I neglected to mention that the Hornady die was new (and wiped out). It doesn't really change anything except to assure that there was no wax build-up in the die.

Now to find a pull-through reamer.
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Old January 24, 2013, 10:03 PM   #6
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pull through reamer for rental here: http://www.reamerrentals.com/Product...ctCode=30-06.p

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Old January 25, 2013, 09:09 AM   #7
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The first case into a clean die needs extra lube. After that, not so much. RCBS works for me using a pad. Lube the inside of the neck, same lube on a nylon brush of the correct caliber.

{Moderator Photo Edit: See forum policy on posting copyrighted materials. Please state if you have express permission, in which case you can put it back in.}

as posted below.

Last edited by Unclenick; February 5, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
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Old January 25, 2013, 09:32 AM   #8
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I doing a quick check for the RCBS lube, I see a pump spray bottle. Is this the right lube?

Having thought about it for a while now, I can say that this is the first stuck case I've had since beginning to load in 1972. I've split dies, but never stuck a case in one.
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:23 AM   #9
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For case lube I use Grease Auto and Artillery GAA or Grease Aircraft Wide Temp Range WTR. You can find it at surplus stores, ebay etc.

If you have a friend who is aircraft mechanic type ask him for Aeroshell 33 (same as WTR above)

It is synthetic and a light tan color.

You might also try Mobil 1 synthetic chassis grease which is pink, got mine at Autozone.

Next what is dimension of your fired cases measured .200" up from case rim?

Normally this should be .471- .473 though I have seen fired cases measure .475".

New unfired brass should measure .465 at same place. Not all dies size the same as I have dies that size from .466 to .469.

Check internal die surface for corrosion as well.

Do fired cases show bulge in one direction more than other?

I have loaded Greek 303 brass but not their 30.06 yet but I do know we gave them a 30.06 line out of Frankford Arsenal when it closed.
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:39 AM   #10
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“I'm going to get me some RCBS lube. It seems to seep through the discussions rather favorably”
Decapped, cleaned in detergent (Dawn) and rinsed, citric acid bath and rinsed, then dried over night above furnace (90 to 100 degrees). Vibrated (Dillon 2000) in mostly walnut with some corn cob and rice treated with New Shine.

I clean cases in corn media and nothing, in the old days I had friends that had a solution for every problem, they had motor rebuild in a quart can, the answer to every problem could be poured from a can. You cleaned your cases with a detergent, then came critic acid, THEN! came the NEW shine. Back to the part where I clean cases in ground-up corm media and nothing. Back in the old days they wanted to use a glaze braker to rough up the cylinder, if it was that bad I would bore the cylinders, there is nothing about a class smooth cylinder I could improve if it was straight without a taper.
The case does not whip my die and press, my press and die wins ever time, I do not use Dawn, I do not use citric acid, I do not use New Shine, if I did and had problems I would go back to corn media and nothing and try again.
Difficult to comprehend, you stuck a case in a forming/trim die, the trim/form die is not a sizer die, cases that are formed with a trim/form die must be full length sized, in my life time I have never stuck a case in a trim/form die, 30/06 cases down to 22 mm as in 22 6mm Remington wildcats, 257 Roberts from 30/06 etc.. I am not a fan of Imperial wax, I am not a fan of Dillon lanolin in the can or bottle. I use stuff, cheap stuff, on ‘tuff’ to size cases, it is messy and the cases must be degreased after sizing. In an earlier attempt to discuss alternative sizing lubes a few members on the forum lost it, seems they were driven into the curb or the topic just simple locked them up, anyhow, I suggest you cut back on the cleaning alternatives. I use corn media and nothing.

You have a short chamber? A reloader with a press, shell holder and die should be able to size a case for a short chamber, forming cases for short chambers is something a reloader should be able to do, forming cases for short chambers is not something a reloader does ever day, the reloader that can form cases for short chamber does not need a head space gage (go, no or beyond), the reloader that can form cases for short chambers does not need a Sinclair case comparator, there are tools that are nice to have, nice but not necessary.

I discovered threads on all my presses, the same for my dies, after the thread thing I found there was a limit, the limiter was set when the die contacted the shell holder. I changed shell holders, changing shell holders allowed me to shorten the case from the head of the case to its shoulder an additional .012”, after that I purchased a few Lee shell holders and gained an additional .003”. I know! I could have ground the base of the die, I could have ground the top of the shell holder to decrease the deck height, back to not necessary, grinding is not necessary, I use the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press.

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Old January 25, 2013, 10:52 AM   #11
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I use RCBS/Hornady lube on a pad for cases I load on my Rock Chucker and either Dillon or Midway spray lube for 30 carbine, 5.56, 7.62x51 and anything else I load on my Dillon 550. All of them work well, and haven't have any problems with stuck cases PROVIDED the cases were well lubed. I skimped a couple of times & stuck a case in the Rock Chucker (don't recall caliber, but it was a bottle-neck rifle case), so now I just ensure they are lubed all-around and haven't had a recurrence. The spray lube is really easy and you can lube a lot of cases quickly in a baking tin or the like. You have to roll them around & let the lube work around the cases just for a couple of minutes, plus they have to dry (alcohol-based). Slicker'n snake snot...

I want to second F. Guffey on the corncob only cleaning. Over the years, I tried them all, and have finally returned to the simple corncob. If I were trying to impress my friends or sell reloads at a gun show, I would spit-shine them with one of the common agents - NuFinish, Midway/Dillon polish - but all I need is clean and corncob does the job with ease (I use 20/40 grit from Drillspot/Grainger: last I bought was $22 shipped for 40 lb, gone a little now).

Last edited by Maj Dad; January 25, 2013 at 11:07 AM.
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Old January 25, 2013, 10:59 AM   #12
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Just a cpl thoughts Wally...

If your expander button is incorrectly positioned in the sizing die, (set to high) you'll stick the case in the die...here's how it works.

If the expander button and decapping pin are too high in the die, you'll be trying to size down the neck and body of the case while the expander button is still in the neck portion of the case...effectively sandwiching the case neck. Having done this early in my loading career (ca. 1962), and having a devil of a time removing the stuck case, I've been very careful regarding decap/expander rods ever since.

But if you're knocking out the primers with the present setup, it's pretty much impossible to do the above. Don't know what to tell you regarding the RCBS trim die problem, however, tho it's for use after re-sizing as I recall.

Be aware that those HXP primers are crimped in...I decap them by hand using a knock out punch then ream the primer pockets for ease of re-priming (after bending a cpl RCBS pins). I like HXP brass...have a bunch of it, but have never had the problems you describe.

With brass thoroughly cleaned as you describe, inside case neck lube is also necessary to preclude excessive lengthening due to drag on the expander button. Too, if you get this sorted out, I'd recommend chucking your expander button in a drill press and lightly polishing it with 600 & 800 grit wet or dry paper for a better smoother neck expand.

Lastly, you may have an undersized die (ie. small based FL sizing die). In my experience with a half dozen M1's, as many 03's and several commercial .30-06's, all fired predominantly with GI brass, I've never needed small based sizing dies...that goes for 5.56mm as well. Lube, as you're no doubt aware, should be lightly applied to the enter case from the largest diameter of the shoulder (but not including the slanted portion, nor the outside of the neck). On the first reloading, I've found it takes a bit more pressure on the press handle, but nothing like you're describing.

What kind of gun did you fire the rounds in? If it was a standard, 03 or Garand, and Imperial Wax isn't doing the job...I'd be hard pressed to offer a suggestion. Imperial is the standard by which all sizing lubes are judged...I've used it for over 25 years on everything from .222 to military .30-06 resized to .35 Whelen with no problems...much of that .30-06 with HXP from CMP as well.
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Old January 25, 2013, 12:58 PM   #13
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There are a lot of thoughtful responses since my last post. They deserve full replies from me and I'll try my best to do that.

Hummer70: Thanks for the leads on alternatives. Filed for future reference.

In a random sample of ten cases, I get and average measurement (at 12 and 3 o'clock so to speak) @ roughly 2/10" of 0.469" +/- 0.001", with one obvious bulge measuring 0.474". SAAMI calls out 0.4708" @ the 0.200" datum line, so the cases (there are 2,700 of them) should not pose a challenge to a properly cut die. The few cases that I managed to size through this die measure 0.465" at (roughly) the same datum line.

The form die is a new Hornady "Custom Grade" sizer. I reduced the diameter of the expander button to 0.305" and polished it, but that should have no effect on the performance of the die as a whole.

The case headstamps (of the sample) range from '62 to '78, all HPX.

I didn't know the the FA machinery had gone to Greece.


F. Guffey: I think I miscommunicated my cleaning operation. I've used this series of steps for some years now, on everything from the grungiest to new, unfired cases. It's just my way of doing things. Excess cleaning can't hurt anything and the citric acid bath passivates the brass (I think I've got the term right) and helps clean the primer pockets better than tumbling alone. This I view as a good thing since I'm reloading for Garand-type actions mostly.

I have no trouble forming cases for short chambers. I merely turn of the required amount from the base of the die. My most recent job turned a .41 Magnum die into a .41 Special die. With that much material to play with, I was able to determine that a carbide insert with a positive rake produced the best finish, which I then polished anyway. I don't have a cylindrical grinder in the shop anymore, so I don't mess with carbide sleeved dies.

My approach to this short chamber is governed by the fact that it's a Garand.

I use Wilson case gages to check every round I load for M1s and M1As.



Maj Dad: Thank you for the baking pan, etc., info.

It's my understanding that folks who clean cases in the course of their business primarily use corncob media. But I'm old and dislike change, so I'll probably persist in my folly. I like the results, can find my cases in the grass and nobody gets hurt (LOL).


Rodfac: Again, being an eccentric, my practice departs from that of more sensible people in that I decap in a single operation. That is, I decap with a purpose made die, then proceed to cleaning. I remove the pin from the sizing, adjust the die with the button rod withdrawn sufficiently to clear the bottom of the case, then lower the rod by hand threading until it touches the web, then back it up two turns. Most rods hace threads around the 28 pitch area, so that means the bottom of the button is about 0.080" clear and well below the neck of any case I might be sizing.

The dies came in a sealed Hornady box just a week ago and neither the die nor the box was marked SB. The results of the cases I was able to size seem to support that they're standard dies.

Although it's not on thee list currently (at least what I got on the internet), there are no 7.62x63 weapons in the Hellenic Army at present, but I remember reading that they had a bunch or 1919 Brownings. I don't know about Garands or other '06 chambered weapons, so I really can't say what these cases were fired through.

Hope there aren't too many errors in this rather long post. But there was a lot to address.
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Old January 25, 2013, 04:13 PM   #14
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Wally, you want this stuff, not spray:

{Moderator edit of photo. See forum policy on posting copyrighted materials. Sorry for the inconvenience, but that's how the lawyers roll.}

Don't bother with a "lube pad."

Just squeeze a #2 pencil-lead line of the stuff below the shoulder of the case about a quarter inch long.

Use your thumb/forefinger to wipe/distribute it around the case down torward the base.
Size.

Pick up next case and use the residual lube on your thumb/forefinger to lube the next case....
...and the next

Then apply some more to the 4th/5th case and start the sequence again.

Last edited by Unclenick; February 5, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
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Old January 25, 2013, 04:45 PM   #15
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Oh Mehavey, the lube pad is cool, I can roll 7-10 cases at a time. You can get the kit for 20.00 at Cabelas, and it comes with nylon neck brushes.
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Old January 25, 2013, 05:13 PM   #16
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Good to know about the Lube 2 v. the pump spray. I'm used to applying the wax, and back a ways the Lee lube, by hand, but I'll also give the pad a try.

Thanks!
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Old February 4, 2013, 01:28 PM   #17
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Reporting back.

Operations performed with the RCBS 2 lube require less effort than those attempted with Imperial Wax. While alternating lubes during experimentation, I got another case stuck, this time in a Pacific Durachrome sizer using Imperial Wax. And stuck with the expander button in the case. Into the freezer went the whole disfunctional mess (@ -20deg. F) for 36 hours.

My attempt to "push" the case out by screwing in the rod stripped the 1/2"-20 male threads, so I sawed through the rod at its narrowest point. I then drilled out the base of the case undersized for a 7/16"-20 tap, inserted the tap to full thread depth and knocked it out from the now clear hole in the top of the die. It came out with what was left of the case.

Fortunately, making a new expander rod is Machine Shop 101, so I'll be back in business shortly.

And using RCBS 2.
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Old February 4, 2013, 03:07 PM   #18
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Good grief, I've never seen such a scientific approach to resizing some darn brass.

I've reloaded a thousand or more for my M1 using many different headstamps. Lee FL die set.

1. Throw cases in the tumbler for two hours.
2. Smear some Hornady Unique sizing lube on the case body and inside the neck, NOT on the shoulder. Use your fingers.
3. Trim to length, buzz off primer crimp, chamfer case mouth.

I tried some of those case sprays, they didn't work worth a flip. One case almost got stuck. The silicone grease consistency of Unique makes the case practically fall out of the die, and to further my point I use a Lee Hand Press to do it.
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Old February 5, 2013, 10:19 AM   #19
F. Guffey
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Mixed dates, but all HXP.

Decapped, cleaned in detergent (Dawn) and rinsed, citric acid bath and rinsed, then dried over night above furnace (90 to 100 degrees). Vibrated (Dillon 2000) in mostly walnut with some corn cob and rice treated with New Shine.

Lubed with Imperial wax. Some size in a Hornady FL die with excess force applied to the handle and some won't go at all. Same with an old RCBS trim die (which currently has a case stuck in it).

I've tried several cases, both dies (until the RCBS decided it wanted to keep the case, busted rim and all) in both Co-Ax and A2 presses.

Chris, I use a tumbler with corn ground up cob...and nothing. That method and or technique lessons my significance. I do not clean my dies with etc., etc.. I use something that is friendly to my dies, I use a towel on a dowel, meaning I was not having trouble with my dies the last time I used them and I do not want to do anything to change that, again, that lessons my significances. Others? I don’t know, seems there is always something outside their reach they would be better off without, degreaser? Back to cleaning my dies with a towel on a dowel. To some every question has a chemical answer.

A few years ago a collector/reloader/shooter sent me a set of 30/06 dies with a case stuck in the sizer die, same story, he started with “I cleaned the die with etc., etc..”. I removed the case, installed his die in my press and proceeded to size a box of cases, I stuck the first case, I then removed the stuck case and proceeded, I almost stuck 5 more cases before I had 20 cases sized. I started on another 20 cases, then like magic, the full length sizing die decided it was supposed to release the case when the ram was lowered. I sent the die back with sized cases and a case puller made up of miscellaneous parts and pieces found in most shops and hardware stores.

Different puller, I do not turn the bolt to pull, I use a nut on the bolt, this allows for straight pulling. He never trusted the dies, he did keep them for back-up.


“I've tried several cases, both dies (until the RCBS decided it wanted to keep the case, busted rim and all) in both Co-Ax and A2 presses”

The A2 RCBS is a cam over press. When, for what ever reason the die decides to keep the case, be kind to the press, rotate the shell holder to enable removal of the shell holder from the ram and case at the same time. Rather than allow this stuff to drive me into the curb I turn the die upside down then screw it into the press from the bottom, because I am the fan of securing the die to the press with the lock ring, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring ‘from the bottom’. First, get the primer punch/sizer plug out of the way by raising it to the top of the die, we all know the sizer plug can not be pulled through the neck of the case if the neck of the case is being sized.

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Old February 5, 2013, 12:41 PM   #20
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I guess I do approach my manufacturing with some precision. Customers seem to like it, though.

I've ordered a tub of Hornady's Unique, Chris. Thanks for the lead on that.

Back in the '70s, the ship I was stationed on still had 1919s and Garands in the small arms locker. For a few years I was swimming in GI brass, live (from the '60s) and a lot more empties (those 1919s were fun for everybody).

This is a guess, but during that period I wouldn't be surprised if I went through 5,000 GI cases and a smattering of commercial stuff and never had any more trouble with '06 than I did with 45ACP (we had Thompsons, too).

If I understand your post, Guffey, we seem to agree that cleaning our dies any more than a good wipe out, particularly sizers, drives the coefficient of friction to the point that cases will stick. I've never done anything more than run a 45 cal dry patch into the "chamber" and that's that. And sometimes I forget to do even that little bit. However, the offending dies in this exercise were both new.

I've replaced the expander assembly that I FUBAR'd, but the new design wouldn't change the O.D. sizing issue one bit. The cases are going in and coming out like their 'spozed ta' now (I have been using the RCBS lube).

I cut the treads for the expander button so that, should a case ever become stuck again, I can unthread it within the stuck case and remove the rod. The original assembly was one piece.



As I mentioned, I've never had a stuck case prior to this experience and couldn't figger out what wazzup, but I appear to be back in business now.

Many thanks for all your replies and assistance.

Wally.
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Old February 5, 2013, 01:05 PM   #21
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On the economy side, you can get a bottle of original STP oil treatment for about $1.50 at Walmart last time I looked. Works fine as case lube.
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Old February 5, 2013, 01:16 PM   #22
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I think I have some. I'll dig it out for a try. Thanks, Unclenick.
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Old February 11, 2013, 11:20 AM   #23
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I could do that, I could dig out my two cans of STP, problem, not for everyone but my 2 cans are Labeled Studebaker. Another problem, with the change of temperature the cans are fatiguing.

Wally, good job on the die improvement, never considered, the internet reloading world is full of post claiming the neck stretches when the sizer plug is pulled through the neck, as in lowering the ram. You can test philosophy (philosophy: What you think), You can drop the primer punch/sizer plug assemble inside the case before lowering the ram, after lowering the ram without sizing the neck with the plug you can measure the length of the case, then reassemble the die and assemble in the press with the ram up ‘THEN! size the neck when the ram is lowered. after removing the case measure the case length, most find the case got shorter instead of longer when the sizer plug was pulled through. Expanding the neck shortens the case length, sizing the neck down lengthens the case neck. Meaning when the neck is sized when the ram is raised the neck gets longer, when the ram is lowered the neck is sized-up causing the case to get shorter.

Lube? Cleaning the inside of the neck with a brush and lubing the inside of the neck eliminates the squeaks when the sizer ball is pulled through.

Working with the 50 BMG puts some philosophies to the test. When it comes to resistance to sizing the 50 BMG moves to the extreme side of bending the press.

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Old February 11, 2013, 11:36 PM   #24
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Nothing wrong with Imperial lube. I just loaded about a 100 once fired HXP cases lubed with Imperial for a Garand match, and I like them much better than LC brass. No primer pockets to ream. Mine went in as smooth as a baby's behind. Hornady makes good dies, I used Lee(not the best dies if you do a lot of adjusting).

Only thing I can think is you have cases fired in a rifle with an oversized chamber, or you are using a SB sizer. I've had so much trouble with SB sizers, I normally run them through a regular die first and then the SB, and I only do that for my FAL ammo.
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Old February 12, 2013, 12:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagar
No primer pockets to ream.
They'd better have primer pockets!

Actually there is a crimp in the HXP, but its a three point staked crimp that isn't as hard to force a fresh primer past. Neither is it as strong at keeping primers from getting loose in a machine gun, the original reason our military started crimping.

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