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Old September 9, 2012, 12:03 PM   #1
Rob Pincus
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Recoil Magazine Editor's ANTI-RKBA Commentary/Opinion.. WOW...

In the 4th Issue of Recoil Magazine, they write, in regard to the H&K MP7:

Quote:
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of..."
Obviously, that has struck a nerve with some people in our community. Rightfully So.

In response to the outcry, the editor had this to offer:

Quote:
Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL. I think I need to jump in here and clarify what I wrote in the MP7A1 article. It looks like I may not have stated my point clearly enough in that line that is quoted up above. Let's be clear, neither RECOIL nor I are taking the stance on what should or should not be made available on the commercial market although I can see how what was written can be confused as such.

Because we don't want anything to be taken out of context, let's complete that quote and read the entire paragraph:

"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."

Let' also review why this gun should not be taken lightly. In the article it was stated that the MP7A1 is a slightly larger than handgun sized machine-gun that can be accurately fired and penetrate Soviet style body armor at more than 300 yards. In the wrong hands, that's a bad day for the good guys.

As readers of RECOIL, we all agree that we love bad-*** hardware, there's no question about that. I believe that in a perfect world, all of us should have access to every kind of gadget that we desire. Believe me, being a civvie myself, I'd love to be able to get my hands on an MP7A1 of my own regardless of its stated purpose, but unfortunately the reality is that it isn't available to us. As a fellow enthusiast, I know how frustrating it is to want something only to be denied it.

Its manufacturer has not made the gun available to the general public and when we asked if it would ever come to the commercial market, they replied that it is strictly a military and law enforcement weapon, adding that there are no sporting applications for it. Is it wrong that HK decided against selling a full-auto pocket sized machine gun that can penetrate armor from hundreds of yards away? It's their decision to make and their decision they have to live with not mine nor anybody else's.

I accepted their answer for what it was out of respect for those serving in uniform. I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn't want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either. Whether or not you agree with this is fine. I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.

Thanks for reading,
- JT, Editor, RECOIL


Wow... I think he just used the typical Gun Control Advocates Line: "That weapon poses a threat to cops !" Really? You made it worse, JT.



Here's my open letter to them:

DEAR RECOIL MAGAZINE,
In reference to: "Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of..."

To say I disagree with your thoughts on the MP7 would be a gross understatement.
In fact, the ignorance of that statement is amazing to me. In case you didn't notice, the only reason Glocks, M&Ps, and probably most of the guns that are paying for advertising space in your rag are built is to put down bad guys.
People may find "sporting purposes" for them... but gun games aren't why they exist. If Wired or Maxim had said what you did, I wouldn't care. You should've known better.
The vast majority of firearms that have been designed and built in the history of the tool have been built for defensive or offensive use. Regardless of the intended role, military, law enforcement or civilian, the overwhelming majority of firearms on shelves in gun shops and shown in the pages of your now incredibly disappointing magazine are designed for use by people against people. While the "shooting sports" label may be a banner that has hung over our industry for political and (sometimes) marketing reasons, your young magazine hasn't exactly catered to the waterfowl or skeet crowds.

Personally, the MP7 is one of the few guns on the planet that I would rush out an pay H&K Retail Price for, if it were ever offered for civilian sale. I've had the pleasure of shooting them many times and training teams that use them. It is a great tool, but didn't possess any magical power that made it reckless, dangerous or inappropriate for any responsible firearms owner to possess.... for whatever reason they desire.

I had high hopes for your publication. Now I expect people to stop reading it, advertisers to fade away and your writers to submit their work to other publications that actually understand the industry they are covering.

-Rob Pincus
-I.C.E. Training Company
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Old September 9, 2012, 01:24 PM   #2
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Wow that "clarification" really didn't make the original statement sound any better.

The guy seems to think that if the MP7 were available to the civilian market, that H&K would do it in full-automatic form. Of course anyone with knowledge of NFA laws will tell you that's not going to happen, due to the whole 1984 registration closure thing. So your typical thug would have about as much luck getting a select-fire MP7 as he would getting any other select-fire gun. Do you see many select-fire guns on the streets mister editor? Plus none of them would pay the price for an MP7 when a MAC-11 can be had for a fraction of the cost and do the job that needs to be done just as well.

In a more realistic semi-only form the MP7 would be just an oversized FN Five-Seven which has been available on the market for several years now. Civilized society still stands against all odds.

Either way the P90 is way cooler.
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Old September 9, 2012, 01:58 PM   #3
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Old September 9, 2012, 02:55 PM   #4
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I like Recoil magazine as an appetite-whetter, but not as a serious gun-enthusiast publication. It's handling of this issue pretty much illustrates why.

Recoil seems to have adopted the "purpose-built" slogan as if it really means something significant. Pause for a moment to reflect just how idiotic it is to declare that an inanimate object has a "purpose" imbued by the "intentions" of its creator that forever defines and limits its uses. (Things don't have "purposes," as any freshman philosophy student can patiently tell you during a teleology for dummies tutorial).

What "purpose-built" does have going for it is that it sounds like a neat slogan, one which a gun magazine publisher might assume will instantly resonate with gun-enthusiast readers who like hyphenated important-sounding descriptions of their favorite objects. And it does sound kind of hip, always a big plus. That assumption was mistaken. Recoil compounded that misunderstanding of its market--and of guns, they very things in which they claim expertise--by endorsing the bizarre notion that only guns built with a "sporting purpose" are suitable for non-military/LE use.

In short, whatever the merits of keeping this gun out of non-military/LE hands, Recoil has addressed them for its knowledgeable readers in a hamfisted manner reminiscent of an old comedy movie involving an award-winning outdoor sportswriter who in reality only knew about hunting, fishing, and camping from manufacturers' descriptions in their catalogs.

Too bad, because I really liked the Recoil magazine concept.

Last edited by Nosreme; September 9, 2012 at 03:36 PM.
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Old September 9, 2012, 03:07 PM   #5
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Wow. Personally I have no desire to own an MP7, but now I also have a very good reason to not bother with this magazine.
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Old September 9, 2012, 03:15 PM   #6
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So I guess we shouldn't ask the article's writer on his view of the Masterpiece Arms pistols available in 5.7x28 of which are available to the civillian market.

https://www.masterpiecearms.com/prod...PA57sst&cat=28
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Old September 9, 2012, 03:54 PM   #7
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Rob Pincus

I have met and spoken with Rob Pincus. He speaks his mind and doesn't mince words. He has plenty of expert content. He doesn't need to generate controversy to get attention. Smart people listen to him.
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Old September 9, 2012, 03:59 PM   #8
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I'm sorry, maybe I'm wrong or misinformed or whatever but I thought the reason for the 2nd amendment was so people could protect themselves from government tyranny. This would make an effective military arm EXACTLY the type of thing that would and maybe even should be sold. I understand the dangers inherent in this opinion but the constitution is what it is. If the government is the only entity which has effective combat arms then the 2nd amendment is weakened.
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Old September 9, 2012, 04:03 PM   #9
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HK and RecoilMag have shown that they are among the people who don't like REAL 2A gun ownership. Banning anything(Including spoon nose bullets and certain 5.7 rds when most are available) is complete BS. I'm sick of people saying things like this about 50BMG, about full-auto, about suppressors, and all the other restricted things in our COuntry that deal with firearms. It's ridiculous. When do we stop? Why do we let companies like this flourish? We are the power. We are the people. Even with all the LE and military sales they do, they'd be down and out if We The People put our foot down.

I think it's a shame that we're more mad at Recoil for saying it than we are at HK for doing it. BOYCOTT THEM BOTH.

Last edited by Tom Servo; September 9, 2012 at 07:07 PM.
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Old September 9, 2012, 04:10 PM   #10
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Edited/Deleted posts...

The presidential candidates/election/politics are not valid topics.

You all know and understand the rules. Further violations will invoke consequences.
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Old September 9, 2012, 04:12 PM   #11
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What kind of surprises me is how many folks just don't seem to fully embrace the meaning of "RIGHT".
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Old September 9, 2012, 04:19 PM   #12
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Any editor who begins a sentence/paragraph with, "Like we mentioned before, ... " has instantly lost all credibility in my book. The correct word for that sentence is "As," not "Like," and those who cannot write proper English should not presume to write for publication in English.

Aside from that, his alleged correction/amplification constitutes a classic example of trying to advocate both sides of a position while not being able to even recognize the meaning of what he wrote.

Dweeb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microgunner
What kind of surprises me is how many folks just don't seem to fully embrace the meaning of "RIGHT".
Exactly correct. Someone needs to send him a copy of Tench Coxe's oft-quoted statement about "all the terrible implements of war" being the birthright of the American.
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Old September 9, 2012, 04:34 PM   #13
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Re: "What kind of surprises me is how many folks just don't seem to fully embrace the meaning of 'RIGHT:'" Sorry, but the 2nd Amendment does not create a right in citizens to have access to any gun that strikes their fancy. Constitutional prohibitions on restrictions on "RKBA" apply to governments, not non-governmental activities. More specifically, HK is under no RKBA-based obligation not to restrict availability of anything.
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Old September 9, 2012, 04:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosreme
More specifically, HK is under no RKBA-based obligation not to restrict availability of anything.


HK does not offer the MP7 to the law abiding citizenry of the US for one reason and one reason only, governmental prohibition.
I guarantee you, HK has taken no such high ground of their own accord.
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Old September 9, 2012, 05:56 PM   #15
Nosreme
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I assume there's a factually sound basis for the quoted language?

"HK does not offer the MP7 to the law abiding citizenry of the US for one reason and one reason only, governmental prohibition. I guarantee you, HK has taken no such high ground of their own accord."

BTW, even on the remote off chance that's accurate, HK still cannot have "violated the 2A."
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Old September 9, 2012, 06:03 PM   #16
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Nosreme, the MP7 is a select-fire weapon. HK can't sell it to Joe Public not only because full auto weapons require licenses, but also because since it is newer than 1986, it can't be imported to the US except for government military and LE use.
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Old September 9, 2012, 06:12 PM   #17
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RE: "Nosreme, the MP7 is a select-fire weapon. HK can't sell it to Joe Public not only because full auto weapons require licenses, but also because since it is newer than 1986, it can't be imported to the US except for government military and LE use."

Yes, thanks--you're right and I knew that and should have noted that when I addressed what I assumed was some kind of notion that something else more sinister and nefarious was at work. In any event, that's a dead horse not worth re-beating.
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Old September 9, 2012, 06:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Nosreme, the MP7 is a select-fire weapon. HK can't sell it to Joe Public not only because full auto weapons require licenses, but also because since it is newer than 1986, it can't be imported to the US except for government military and LE use.
Correct. H&K's hands are tied in the matter. The issue is the editor's commentary on what the citizenry of the U.S. should be allowed to own.
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Old September 9, 2012, 07:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Nosreme, the MP7 is a select-fire weapon. HK can't sell it to Joe Public not only because full auto weapons require licenses, but also because since it is newer than 1986, it can't be imported to the US except for government military and LE use.
They can make it semi-automatic and sell it as a pistol or rifle with a longer barrel. No other manufacturer has been stopped from selling guns in the US because they were originally designed with select fire capability.
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Old September 9, 2012, 07:40 PM   #20
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They could indeed. I am certain that if they believe there is sufficient demand to make the enterprise profitable that they will.

They did something similar, years back, releasing the SP89 as a semi-auto analog to the MP5.
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Old September 9, 2012, 07:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it.
Just a bit of hyperbole in that quote. I've read where the Gatling gun was supposed to make warfare so horrible that mankind would stop making war entirely.
They greatly underestimated man's inhumanity to man.

And who's to say we couldn't think up a sporting application, or that we lowly serfs... um civilians don't have a need to put down scumbags if it arises (God forbid)?
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Old September 9, 2012, 08:08 PM   #22
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Just my opinion so take it as that. I from the very beginning didn't take recoil magazine as a serious gun magazine with much informational value (it has some but not much). To me it was a fun mag or a toy magazine for men. Nice pictures, nice tacticool items, etc. I have told friends that read Recoil to consider reading SWAT as well, as a real gun magazine with real world practical content to train with, survival ideas to practice and employ, and opinions from guys like Pat Rogers, Louis Awerbuck, Brent, Jeff, Scott, Ethan, Todd, Ed and all the other writers I missed. They write without bias, they write what they believe works, what they have seen work, what they have employed and has worked, what also write they like and what they don't like about certain gear and items. Recoil is like Maxim mag or Stuff for gun guys not much usable content and info, just something that looks nice and has nice pictures, and a bunch of cool gear. SWAT I can read from cover to cover and not be bored one single bit. I love the living off the grid portion, it is by far my favorite. Recoil has lost three readers due to that article and a few more to come if I can help it.
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Old September 10, 2012, 12:00 AM   #23
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A gun rag for Socialists. Cool. Someone needs to sit down with this guy and explain to him where he lives and who his audience is. A similar thing happened a few years back when a writer at a popular motorcycle monthly wrote a piece that basically was a gross insult to gunowners. Imagine her surprise when the backwash hit the publishers and found out that a lot of guys who own motorcycles also own handguns and are strong vocal supporters of the 2nd A. She apologized in print but the damage was done and they lost a LOT of readership. Maybe she works at HK now. Just because someone has a Journalism degree doesn't mean that they're not an idiot.

Last edited by drail; September 10, 2012 at 12:10 AM.
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Old September 10, 2012, 05:13 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drail
Just because someone has a Journalism degree doesn't mean that they're not an idiot.
Quod erat demonstrandum. Just pick up almost any daily (or Sunday) newspaper.
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Old September 10, 2012, 10:08 AM   #25
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FN has commercial versions of a similarly oriented gun platform. It's probably a market decision on HK's part not to do market a semi version.

FN's hasn't exactly taken off.
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