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Old February 9, 2013, 10:29 AM   #1
rd_zzyzx
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Join Date: October 25, 2011
Posts: 3
Two lines of questioning and reasoning to take to any one for more gun regulation

Two lines of questioning for those that want stricter gun regulation:

For those that want to make a list of firearms and accessories that are illegal:

Instead of describing what an illegal firearm is, please describe a legal firearm. Trying to define something by what it is not is open ended. You can not list the infinite number of things something is not. Therefore describe what a legal firearm is, a firearm that meets your definition of a firearm that upholds the 2nd Amendment.

(This will take us off of the slippery slope and directly to where they really want to go.)




For those that want to increase taxes on bullets, have fees for registration, fees for training, and fees for background checks:

Do you support the 2nd Amendment? Is the 2nd Amendment a right for the poor? Will there be vouchers for the poor to receive bullets relative to their ability to pay, as well as vouchers for registration fees and training fees? Or is the 2nd Amendment only for the wealthy?

(This will expose the slippery slope of infringement and show that regulation restricts persons by their ability to afford to pay the fees and taxes. How will it settle in the stomaches of the tax payers to know that they are funding low income persons to purchase firearms and ammunition? Especially those against firearms completely.)


Please spread these questions around so that others can bring them up in town meetings, letters with their elected officials, etc.
Also, please add your list of questions to this thread so we all can benefit.
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Old February 9, 2013, 10:33 AM   #2
thecelt
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Good post man, ill post this n my local forum.
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Old February 9, 2013, 02:33 PM   #3
rd_zzyzx
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Mercury News:

Moderator Action: by Spats McGee to remove copyrighted material.



And here are the bills:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/...d_sen_v98.html



BILL NUMBER: SB 47 AMENDED
BILL TEXT

AMENDED IN SENATE JANUARY 24, 2013

INTRODUCED BY Senator Yee
( Coauthors: Senators De
León and Steinberg )
( Coauthor: Assembly Member
Dickinson )

DECEMBER 18, 2012

An act relating to assault weapons. An act
to amend Sections 30515 and 30900 of, and to add Section 30680 to,
the Penal Code, relating to firearms.


LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


SB 47, as amended, Yee. Assault Firearms:
assault weapons.
(1) Existing law generally prohibits the possession or transfer of
assault weapons, except for the sale, purchase, importation, or
possession of assault weapons by specified individuals, including law
enforcement officers. Under existing law, "assault weapon" means,
among other things, a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle or a
semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable
magazine and has any one of specified attributes, including, for
rifles, a thumbhole stock, and for pistols, a second handgrip.

This bill would revise these provisions to mean a semiautomatic,
centerfire rifle or a semiautomatic pistol that does not have a fixed
magazine but has any one of those specified attributes.
This bill would also define "fixed magazine" to mean an ammunition
feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm
in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without
disassembly of the firearm action.
By expanding the definition of an existing crime, the bill would
impose a state-mandated local program.
(2) Existing law requires that any person who, within this state,
possesses any .50 BMG rifle, except as otherwise provided, be
punished by a fine of $1,000, imprisonment in a county jail for a
period not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

This bill would exclude from those provisions a person who
possessed an assault weapon prior to July 1, 2014, if specified
requirements are met.
(3) Existing law requires that, with specified exceptions, any
person who, prior to January 1, 2001, lawfully possessed an assault
weapon prior to the date it was defined as an assault weapon, and
which was not specified as an assault weapon at the time of lawful
possession, register the firearm with the Department of Justice.

This bill would require that any person who, from January 1, 2001,
to December, 31, 2013, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault
weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined, and including
those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be removed
readily from the firearm with the use of a tool, register the firearm
before July 1, 2014, with the Department of Justice.
(4)The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse
local agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
reimbursement.
This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this
act for a specified reason.
Existing law finds and declares that the proliferation and use of
assault weapons poses a threat to the health, safety, and security of
Californians. Existing law generally prohibits the possession or
transfer of assault weapons, except for the sale, purchase,
importation, or possession of assault weapons by specified
individuals, including law enforcement officers.
Under existing law, a person who lawfully possessed an assault
weapon before the assault weapon was a prohibited firearm is
authorized to retain possession of the assault weapon if the person
registered the assault weapon with the Department of Justice.

This bill would state the intent of the Legislature to enact
legislation relating to assault weapons.
Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: no
yes . State-mandated local program: no
yes .


THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

SECTION 1. It is the intent of the Legislature
to enact legislation relating to assault weapons.
SECTION 1. Section 30515 of the Penal
Code is amended to read:
30515. (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also
means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the
capacity to accept a detachable magazine and does not
have a fixed magazine but has any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine
with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length
of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and does not have a fixed
magazine but has any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor,
forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely
encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon
without burning the bearer's hand, except a slide that encloses the
barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a
detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(b) For purposes of this section, "fixed magazine" means an
ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a
firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without
disassembly of the firearm action.
(b)
(c) The Legislature finds a significant public purpose
in exempting from the definition of "assault weapon" pistols that are
designed expressly for use in Olympic target shooting events.
Therefore, those pistols that are sanctioned by the International
Olympic Committee and by USA Shooting, the national governing body
for international shooting competition in the United States, and that
were used for Olympic target shooting purposes as of January 1,
2001, and that would otherwise fall within the definition of "assault
weapon" pursuant to this section are exempt, as provided in
subdivision (c) (d) .
(c)
(d) "Assault weapon" does not include either of the
following:
(1) Any antique firearm.
(2) Any of the following pistols, because they are consistent with
the significant public purpose expressed in subdivision (b)
(c) :
MANUFACTURER MODEL CALIBER
BENELLI MP90 .22LR
BENELLI MP90 .32 S&W LONG
BENELLI MP95 .22LR
BENELLI MP95 .32 S&W LONG
HAMMERLI 280 .22LR
HAMMERLI 280 .32 S&W LONG
HAMMERLI SP20 .22LR
HAMMERLI SP20 .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI GPO .22 SHORT
PARDINI GP-SCHUMANN .22 SHORT
PARDINI HP .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI MP .32 S&W LONG
PARDINI SP .22LR
PARDINI SPE .22LR
WALTHER GSP .22LR
WALTHER GSP .32 S&W LONG
WALTHER OSP .22 SHORT
WALTHER OSP-2000 .22 SHORT


(3) The Department of Justice shall create a program that is
consistent with the purposes stated in subdivision (b)
(c) to exempt new models of competitive pistols
that would otherwise fall within the definition of "assault weapon"
pursuant to this section from being classified as an assault weapon.
The exempt competitive pistols may be based on recommendations by USA
Shooting consistent with the regulations contained in the USA
Shooting Official Rules or may be based on the recommendation or
rules of any other organization that the department deems relevant.
SEC. 2. Section 30680 is added to the
Penal Code , to read:
30680. Notwithstanding the meaning of "assault weapon" under
Section 30515, as amended by the act that added this section, Section
30610 shall not apply to the possession of an assault weapon by a
person who initially possessed the assault weapon prior to July 1,
2014, if all of the following are applicable:
(a) During the person's possession, the person was eligible to
register that assault weapon pursuant to subdivision (c) of Section
30900.
(b) The person lawfully possessed that assault weapon on January
1, 2014.
(c) During the person's possession, the person was otherwise in
compliance with the then-applicable version of former Chapter 2.3
(commencing with Section 12275) of Title 2 of Part 4 or this chapter,
as the case may be.
SEC. 3. Section 30900 of the Penal Code
is amended to read:
30900. (a) Any person who, prior to June 1, 1989, lawfully
possessed an assault weapon, as defined in former Section 12276, as
added by Section 3 of Chapter 19 of the Statutes of 1989, shall
register the firearm by January 1, 1991, and any person who lawfully
possessed an assault weapon prior to the date it was specified as an
assault weapon pursuant to former Section 12276.5, as added by
Section 3 of Chapter 19 of the Statutes of 1989 or as amended by
Section 1 of Chapter 874 of the Statutes of 1990 or Section 3 of
Chapter 954 of the Statutes of 1991, shall register the firearm
within 90 days with the Department of Justice pursuant to those
procedures that the department may establish.
(b) Except as provided in Section 30600, any person who lawfully
possessed an assault weapon prior to the date it was defined as an
assault weapon pursuant to former Section 12276.1, as it read in
Section 7 of Chapter 129 of the Statutes of 1999, and which was not
specified as an assault weapon under former Section 12276, as added
by Section 3 of Chapter 19 of the Statutes of 1989 or as amended at
any time before January 1, 2001, or former Section 12276.5, as added
by Section 3 of Chapter 19 of the Statutes of 1989 or as amended at
any time before January 1, 2001, shall register the firearm by
January 1, 2001, with the department pursuant to those procedures
that the department may establish.
(c) Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2013,
inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a
fixed magazine, as defined in Section 30515, and including those
weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily
from the firearm with the use of a tool, shall register the firearm
before July 1, 2014, with the department pursuant to those procedures
that the department may establish.
(c)
(d) The registration shall contain a description of the
firearm that identifies it uniquely, including all identification
marks, the full name, address, date of birth, and thumbprint of the
owner, and any other information that the department may deem
appropriate.
(d)
(e) The department may charge a fee for registration of
up to twenty dollars ($20) per person but not to exceed the actual
processing costs of the department. After the department establishes
fees sufficient to reimburse the department for processing costs,
fees charged shall increase at a rate not to exceed the legislatively
approved annual cost-of-living adjustment for the department's
budget or as otherwise increased through the Budget Act but
not to exceed the actual processing costs of the
department . The fees shall be deposited into the Dealers'
Record of Sale Special Account.
SEC. 4. No reimbursement is required by this act
pursuant to Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California
Constitution because the only costs that may be incurred by a local
agency or school district will be incurred because this act creates a
new crime or infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or
changes the penalty for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of
Section 17556 of the Government Code, or changes the definition of a
crime within the meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the
California Constitution.
__________________
-------------------------------
RD

Last edited by Spats McGee; February 9, 2013 at 04:49 PM. Reason: Remove copyrighted material
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Old February 9, 2013, 08:12 PM   #4
Spats McGee
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Posts: 4,965
A good post, rd_zzyzx, but I'll bring a couple of things to your attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rd_zzyzx
Two lines of questioning for those that want stricter gun regulation:

For those that want to make a list of firearms and accessories that are illegal:

Instead of describing what an illegal firearm is, please describe a legal firearm. Trying to define something by what it is not is open ended. You can not list the infinite number of things something is not. Therefore describe what a legal firearm is, a firearm that meets your definition of a firearm that upholds the 2nd Amendment.

(This will take us off of the slippery slope and directly to where they really want to go.)
The problem is that once legislation describes "what a legal firearm is," then we're limited to those things specifically in the description. Imagine that Congress had taken that step circa 1800. Then the Second Amendment really might apply only to muskets, just like the antis claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rd_zzyzx
For those that want to increase taxes on bullets, have fees for registration, fees for training, and fees for background checks:

Do you support the 2nd Amendment? Is the 2nd Amendment a right for the poor? Will there be vouchers for the poor to receive bullets relative to their ability to pay, as well as vouchers for registration fees and training fees? Or is the 2nd Amendment only for the wealthy?

(This will expose the slippery slope of infringement and show that regulation restricts persons by their ability to afford to pay the fees and taxes. How will it settle in the stomaches of the tax payers to know that they are funding low income persons to purchase firearms and ammunition? Especially those against firearms completely.)


Please spread these questions around so that others can bring them up in town meetings, letters with their elected officials, etc.
Also, please add your list of questions to this thread so we all can benefit.
The increased cost associated with training, fees, licensure, registration, etc., is one that I bring up frequently. I'm often met with "that's less than a 12-pack of beer." Be sure to explain that a single mother of three, working two jobs and living in a shady neighborhood has as much right to defend herself, and her kids, as her wealthier counterparts.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
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Old February 10, 2013, 10:03 AM   #5
rd_zzyzx
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2011
Posts: 3
Quote:
The problem is that once legislation describes "what a legal firearm is," then we're limited to those things specifically in the description. Imagine that Congress had taken that step circa 1800. Then the Second Amendment really might apply only to muskets, just like the antis claim.
Of course, the point being to get them to say exactly where they truly want to go and then we can call it out.

Most do not want any guns, so, to be politically correct about not destroying the constitution they might say, "A single shot .22 LR long gun", or "..."

Then we can mount an attack against a real stance instead of "common sense" gun reform.
__________________
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Old February 10, 2013, 10:18 AM   #6
Spats McGee
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Location: Arkansas
Posts: 4,965
Well, I don't think we'd get an honest answer. I think we'd get something more along the lines of "firearms useful for sporting and hunting purposes, which coincide with our long heritage of hunting and sport-shooting."

I'd also prefer not to lock the 2A down where we stand today. When the Phaser is finally invented, I want one!
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
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