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Old January 21, 2013, 03:39 PM   #1
Metal god
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civilian marksmanship program

Is the CMP a law congress passed allowing Americans to buy military surplus rifles ?

Is it just a Program that makes it easier to buy such rifles ?

The point of the question is . If a state outlawed all semi auto rifles would you still be able to own a M1 garand because of the CMP program . Meaning federal law trumps state law .
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Old January 21, 2013, 03:43 PM   #2
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Quote:
The CMP was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military.
It is all right here:

http://www.odcmp.com/sales.htm
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Old January 21, 2013, 03:57 PM   #3
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The short version:

CMP was originally run by the Army to sell off surplus rifles, and promote accuracy for the young kids who were going to be the next generation's soldier. After a while the Army was backed out, the CMP was spun off into it's own non-profit org, with a congressional charter. And no, you can't buy a CMP weapon if it's banned in your hometown.
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Old January 21, 2013, 03:59 PM   #4
Metal god
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yep and thats what I've read and here is my confusion
Quote:
Any U.S. citizen who is legally not prohibited from owning a firearm may purchase a military surplus rifle from the CMP,
Im sure there is more to it then this legally because of the purpose the act was started
Quote:
The CMP was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military.
It seems it could be argued that the CMP program is an extension of the 2a and all Americans allowed to own a firearm shall be allowed to own a rifle from the CMP .

My point is , would a court even listen to a case like this and is there a arguement to be made .
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Old January 21, 2013, 04:06 PM   #5
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Nope, because A) There are multiple choices for firearms to buy... B)supply isn't guaranteed either.. when they run out, they run out. C) Not everything they sl is military surplus D) If you live in a gun ban state, that bans the M1 (their current offering) you are legally prohibited from owning that firearm.

The good news is that those M1's could fall through a crack known as curio and reic. COULD fall through.
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Old January 21, 2013, 04:09 PM   #6
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The CMP is simply a program. The law that established the DCM- which later became the CMP- AFAIK do not trump state law in any way.
Quote:
...federal law trumps state law .
It is not that simple. Up until the D.C. v. Heller decision, it was a basic assumption of most federal-level firearms law that the states had an externally unchecked* power to restrict the possession, ownership, and carrying of firearms within their own borders. The Commerce Clause gave the Feds the power to pass minimum standards and taxes that affected interstate commerce in arms, but the states could enact whatever additional standards they saw fit to enforce within their own borders, and those regulations were not the Feds' business. Most federal firearms law is written with this in mind.

IOW most federal firearms law adds restrictions, but is carefully written to avoid overturning or preempting more stringent state restrictions.

*Many states have a counterpart to the 2A enshrined in the state constitution, but my point is that the checks on the states' powers to regulate arms came from within, rather than from without.
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Last edited by carguychris; January 21, 2013 at 04:11 PM. Reason: minor reword...
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Old January 21, 2013, 04:11 PM   #7
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^^^

Life is still OK for Garands, even in New York: There are no evil features on the rifle, and there ARE 5 shot enbloc clips available for them.....

If NY et-al ban "magazione feeding devices" of more than 7 shots, that does not ban the rifle... just the clips (which *are* properly called "clips" in the Garand).


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Old January 21, 2013, 04:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
There are no evil features on the rifle
It has a bayonet lug. In truth it is a military style assault rifle. It just lacks select fire capability.
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Old January 21, 2013, 04:55 PM   #9
Willie Sutton
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^^ Ok, it has one evil feature.. unless you change out the gas cylinder to one that has had the lug ground off. Then it has none.

I've shot these for about 4 decades... I know exactly what they are...



You might want to re-check the *correct* and *accepted* definitions of:

"Service Rifle"
"Battle Rifle"
"Assault Rifle"

BTW.... so as to not appear foolish in the future.


The bottom line is that the Garand is not something currently targeted even by New York.

Clips.. five shot ones are around, so scrounge them up.



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Old January 21, 2013, 04:58 PM   #10
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Ok if you grind off the bayonet lug it is a battle rifle. But only just barely. Consider yourself warned.

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Old January 21, 2013, 05:06 PM   #11
Willie Sutton
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Abraham Lincoln famously asked in a debate:

"How many legs does a dog have, if we call it's tail a leg?"


After some heming and hawing by his opponent, he spoke up and said:

"It has four legs, because no matter what we call its tail, a tail is not a leg".


And similarly, a Garand is not and never will be an assault rifle no matter what we call it's tail...


A Garand is a Service Rifle, correctly defined in it's subgrouping as a Battle Rifle *no matter how it's configured*. If it were full auto .30-06 and had a removable magazine (such as certain pre-M-14 prototypes were set up), it would correctly be called an "Automatic Rifle". Didn't Mr. Browning design one of those critters in about 1918?

Anything of full size caliber fails to meet *any* definition of an assault rifle, as defined by anyone with any working knowlage of firearms.

Let's not fall into the nomenclatural traps set forth by our enemies.



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Last edited by Willie Sutton; January 21, 2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:11 PM   #12
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But lets still be cognizant of the assault WEAPONS ban they might use to put us in prison.
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:13 PM   #13
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I love that story.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/u...2;t=000450;p=0

Once the law started with this:

Quote:
SEMI-AUTOMATIC OR PUMP-ACTION *RIFLE
I knew it was all hopeless.
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:17 PM   #14
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^^ and further note that under the most strict law in effect at the moment, that of New York, Garand's are NOT a prohibited firearm and that there IS a substitute enbloc clip already available that meets the 7 shot rule.

It's a pain in the ass, but not a ban...



In fact, methinks that Garands will become the Patriots *service rifle* of choice in New York.

Poetic justice if they are provided by the US Government via the CMP to the Patriots...
(Hint: Buy a dozen)


Thanks for the Snopes link. I think this joke ought to be on all of our lips, so we can use it to disarm our opponents with a smile when they speak of assalt rifles.


Willie


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; January 21, 2013 at 05:28 PM.
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:21 PM   #15
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From my understanding, though to be fair I should read it again to be sure as 'm not a New Yorker and wasn't paying THAT much attention, if someone made a 2013 Garand, it could be banned based on the one evil feature test. I believe Garands only get a pass due to their age.
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:28 PM   #16
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^^ You are mistaken.

"ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING"



So no detachable magazine... no "assault rifle" of the five-legged sort.


Now IF they propose to call a "clip" a "removable magazine" (another 5 legged dog trick, but let's think ahead)... all that would need to be done would be to grind off the bayonet lug. if I ever need to fix-bayonets in order to repel the enemy, methinks drawing-sidearms would be a better choice. In fact what better choice than a 1911 of the 7-shot variety...





Smile,


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Last edited by Willie Sutton; January 21, 2013 at 05:36 PM.
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Old January 21, 2013, 06:04 PM   #17
JimDandy
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IF Stripper clips are a magazine which could, and probably WOULD be argued, you still have to buy it first, before you can grind off the bayonet lug... and as it can accept the 8 round stripper clips, you're stuck in a chicken or the egg contest you can't easily win.
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Old January 21, 2013, 07:17 PM   #18
hermannr
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Jimdandy, you worry too much.
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Old January 21, 2013, 07:58 PM   #19
Willie Sutton
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IF Stripper clips are a magazine which could, and probably WOULD be argued, you still have to buy it first, before you can grind off the bayonet lug... and as it can accept the 8 round stripper clips, you're stuck in a chicken or the egg contest you can't easily win.



Nonsense. Really.

"Tin foil hat off time"....


Let's use some of our "at least third grade critical thinking skills":

You buy a Garand.
It does not COME with clips.
Change out the gas cylinder.
Go buy 5 round clips.
Lock and Load.


And if it comes down to this being an issue, methinks the CMP will be smart enough to sell modified gas cylinders ab-initio to buyers in NY. My guess is that it will not be an issue.



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Old January 21, 2013, 08:00 PM   #20
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I will point out that all the Garands come from CMP with an 8 round clip. Maybe we should tell them?

A dozen? I wish I could afford a dozen. Still, an excellent price for an excellent rifle.
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Old January 21, 2013, 08:02 PM   #21
Willie Sutton
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^^ I'm sure they will be happy to keep the clip if it becmes an issue.

Really, a clip is not "a removable magazine"... by any four-legged definition anyway....

We will see.


Garands are probably the only "sure bet" for investment. Not affected by the buying-panic price-gouging, not really ever going to be subjected to any EBR bans, they will never sell for less than they sell for now, and quantities are not unlimited. One day the CMP will be out of them.


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Old January 21, 2013, 09:14 PM   #22
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Quote:
One day the CMP will be out of them.
If the Koreans will just hang to the ones they are holding on to until we get someone else in office we might have a shot at those.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
The point of the question is . If a state outlawed all semi auto rifles would you still be able to own a M1 garand because of the CMP program . Meaning federal law trumps state law .
No. 36 USC ยง 40732 - Sale of firearms and supplies:

Quote:
(b)(2) Except as provided in section 40733 of this title, sales under this subsection are subject to applicable United States, State, and local law.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimDandy
IF Stripper clips are a magazine which could, and probably WOULD be argued, you still have to buy it first, before you can grind off the bayonet lug... and as it can accept the 8 round stripper clips, you're stuck in a chicken or the egg contest you can't easily win.
M1 Garand en bloc clips are not stripper clips. Stripper clips are not "magazine feeding devices." They do not remain in the firearm when it is operated. Stripper clips are cartridge storage devices.

The M1 Garand en bloc clip is also not a magazine. The M1 has an internal magazine. The en bloc clip simply organizes the cartridges so they can be loaded into the internal magazine in groups, or blocks -- hence, "en bloc."
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Old January 21, 2013, 10:11 PM   #25
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Let's back up a bit...

I've taken an intense interest in the new law and I've read it several times. IANAL, but here's my interpretation of how it will affect the M1 Garand.

The M1 Garand is NOT an "assault weapon" because it does not accept a detachable magazine. However, this doesn't mean it's exempt from the NY Safe Act. Let me explain.

The main issue is the definition of "large capacity ammunition feeding device" or LCAFD for short. A LCAFD is defined as follows:
Quote:
"Large capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, that (a) has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition, or (b) contains more than seven rounds of ammunition, or (c) is obtained after the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen which amended this subdivision and has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than seven rounds of ammunition; provided, however, that such term does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition or a feeding device that is a curio or relic...
(Emphasis mine)

A subsequent section says that "Curio or Relic" (which I'll call CoR) LCAFDs may be legally brought into NY but must be registered.

I believe that the internal box magazine of an M1 Garand is considered an LCAFD since it can hold over 7 rounds, and only rimfire tube mags are exempted.* An original Garand qualifies as CoR because the rifle has been out of production for over 50 years, so it may be lawfully transferred into the state, but the internal box magazine must be registered.

As I read it, the definition of LCAFD clearly includes en bloc clips (and stripper clips for that matter).

8rd Garand clips that qualify as a CoR may theoretically be brought into NY legally, but proving that the clips are over 50 years old may be tricky. Once (if?) that hurdle is cleared, they still have to be individually(!) registered.

Due to the registration requirement, I foresee many New Yorkers sticking with 5rd clips from this point forward, until someone comes up with a special 7rd clip.

*Yes, this apparently encompasses 10rd Lee-Enfield magazines as well!
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