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Old January 27, 2013, 08:24 AM   #51
Pond, James Pond
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What i do agree with is that more gun control in America will not make any difference in stopping mass shootings.
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So why are you counseling us that registration and home inspections and other violations of our Rights are no big deal?
Everyone keeps pointing out that these mass-shootings are a small percentage gun deaths. So perhaps taking steps, or considering practices that reduces gun deaths as a whole is no bad thing.

I don't think anyone said that this was no big deal.

These are things that need to be discussed and challenging conventions is no bad thing if it gets people thinking about things and considering all options with a clearer perspective.
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Old January 27, 2013, 12:31 PM   #52
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Murder through the world from the UNODC - Homicide rate per 100,000 population.


United States of America

15,241 Number.

5 Rate.


2009.

United Kingdom

724 Number.

1.2 Rate.

2009
I did some of my own research and the US homicide rate was about 1.7/100,000 using weapons other than guns in 2011 so even if we un-invented guns, our homicide rate would be higher than that of the UK.

However, if you look at the overall homicide rates of Idaho, Vermont, New Hampshire, North Dakota or Utah, you see rates comparable or even lower than that of the UK.
Outside the crime hot spots of Detroit, Baltimore, Washington DC, Chicago, et al, the US is actually a low crime country.

How deaths are reported can skew the statistics. For example the automobile accident deaths in 2009 numbered 35,900 if you count the people who died within one year of their injuries.
Counting only the people who died within 30 days of their injuries reduces that number to 33,800.

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Old January 28, 2013, 12:05 AM   #53
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Everyone keeps pointing out that these mass-shootings are a small percentage gun deaths. So perhaps taking steps, or considering practices that reduces gun deaths as a whole is no bad thing.
If any of these steps require or leads to further erosion of my rights, then NO.

You want to do these things, go ahead. I will not. Enough.
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Old January 28, 2013, 06:01 AM   #54
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If any of these steps require or leads to further erosion of my rights, then NO.

You want to do these things, go ahead. I will not. Enough.
Well, I'm coming at this from an outside perspective.
I obey the local laws and use my guns responsibly. Beyond that I'm not really going to do anything differently.

But I'm not afraid to explore and consider all options. That doesn't commit anyone to anything, except thought.

Any laws that come into effect in the US are unlikely to affect me but, as a human being, I would like to see fewer lives being ended prematurely so if a solution were found that was acceptable to all, it would be nice.
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Old January 29, 2013, 01:31 PM   #55
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Do you call the treatment of North American Indians as a good example of tolerance.
Quote. Unlike post-war Germany, North Americans refuse to acknowledge this genocide. Almost one and a quarter million Kanien'ke:haka (Mohawk) were killed off leaving us only a few thousand survivors.
There was a systematic plan to destroy most of the native people by outright murder by bounty hunters and land grabbers, disease through distributing small pox infested blankets, relocation, theft of children who were placed in concentration camps called "residential schools" and assimilation.


PS Some times people should look closer to home before slagging of other countries.

Mods can delete this if they want. I think its relevant as posters seem happy to have a go at other countries. And talk about how civilized America is.
Well, we can go back that far if you like. I was thinking in the last 100 years, but, sure we can go back further. Lets look at Belgium and the Congo. Lets look at Turkey and the Armenians. Lets look at Great Britain and the Opium Wars in China. I can give more examples if you want?

As for Americans slagging off other countries, give me a break. How many out there are bitching about the U.S? Loads, especially in Europe.

Have the British apologized to the Native Americans for implementing biological warfare against them. Small Pox. Nope I do not think so.

I will stand by what I say regarding the U.S and tolerance. It is no perfect but does not compare with the atrocities carried out by the European nations. Now do not get me wrong, I am proud of my Anglo heritage, but I stand by what I say.
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Old January 29, 2013, 01:50 PM   #56
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OK the Americans are more tolerant than those bad Europeans. They even let people of different ethnic origins travel on the same bus now. PS. My point look at your own history before having a go at other countries.
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Old January 29, 2013, 03:34 PM   #57
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Manta, I think you are being a bit overly sensitive here.

The point has been made repeatedly in the media that firearm homicides are lower in the UK and many other European countries, than they are in the US.

Several people pointed out that if one looks at all homicide, the differences shrink. Others pointed out the there are differences in how homicide is reported, nation to nation, and this can significantly affect the reported homicide rate or murder rate.

Then someone else pointed out that perhaps we should include the crime of genocide, since genocide is a crime committed by governments or quasi-governments. If we include genocide, North America in this century looks pretty good in comparison to Europe, Asia, and Africa. I would also add that South America compares quite favorably as well.

No one is saying that the US is without fault. No one is saying that "Americans are more tolerant than those bad Europeans". People were just pointing out that it is a lot more complicated than simply comparing the firearm homicide rate between the UK and the USA. A lot more complicated.

Prior to 1905, there was no recognition of genocide. Wholesale slaughter or enemy civilian populations was considered a normal part of warefare, and civil wars usually involved elements of genocide and slaughter based on ethnicity, religeous affiliation, or geographic origin.
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Old January 29, 2013, 04:04 PM   #58
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Europe is hardly a great example of peace and morality. Niether is Asia or Africa or the Middle East. When you start including genocides then North America is actually a very good example of tolerance and peace.
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I was replying to the above post. Talking about Europe as a example as if its one country isn't accurate. There are a lot of countries in Europe all with different laws cultures and traditions.

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The point has been made repeatedly in the media that firearm homicides are lower in the UK and many other European countries, than they are in the US.
The media make it up as they go along to suit their view on things.
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Old January 29, 2013, 04:21 PM   #59
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I'd say it is on par with the British treatment of the Irish during the Potato Famine
But sir; the Brits fed those Irish who renounced Catholicism and joined the Anglican church. Surely that counts for something.

Just for fun compare US and Brazil murder rates.
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Old January 29, 2013, 06:04 PM   #60
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Manta, I think you are being a bit overly sensitive here.

The point has been made repeatedly in the media that firearm homicides are lower in the UK and many other European countries, than they are in the US.
I'll chime in here.
Is Manta being sensitive? Yes, probably.
Is it understandable? Also, yes, but I'll come to that in a second.

Re the media.
If the media says it, do you (collectively) have to respond? Why?
Numerous times, several members, myself included, have pointed out what a red herring comparisons with other countries are.
Whatever the crime rates are in the US, it is largely due to the situation in the US. The same with the situatiion in the UK. There is no causal link between the two.

Most people realise that if they stop and think about it, rather than taking the bait from the media.
Why the pro-gun community even gives these comparisons credence is beyond me. It seems to be fighting in a reactive, not proactive manner, so the media can lead the agenda

If we stop and think about it we also realise that guns won't reduce the incidence of crime, just the outcomes: Will a person be a victim or someone that can retaliate or not.
So again, why do people bother looking to other continents to justify choices for US society. It makes no sense.
It's like if the UK based traffic policy on US accident rates.... Pointless.

This leads on the first part of the quote above and this:

Quote:
No one is saying that "Americans are more tolerant than those bad Europeans".
No, they aren't. Actually at times, they say things that are far worse.
And that, rather than this particular thread is what elicits frustration at times, certainly for me. This may also be the reason Manta appears sensitive.

Often, and more so recently, there have been a steady stream of UK/Rest of World vs US threads.
Some members, no doubt frustrated with the situation on their home turf, turn their ire toward the UK and other "foreign" places, probably because the same media keep saying what a good example such places are for gun policy.

I've seen posts where members have called the UK a cesspool of crime, posts where people have intimated that British soldiers don't know their bayonet from their mess-tin, that Brits are all cowards, that the French are worthless, that Europe is one homogenous communist hole... you get the point.

That gets a bit old, and many members, possibly because the majority of their peers are American, forget that this is still an international forum, and that there are representatives of quite a few nations.
And we are all bound by a love of shooting.

I may not agree with how everything is done in the US but, when I've chosen to express that view, I've certainly tried to express those views respectfully.
If I didn't, there'd be a furore.

And yet when I've seen the posts I paraphrased above, amongst others, the sad thing is that seldom have I seen other members, US members, challenging such posts saying that they are out of order and uncalled for.
I have no doubt that if I'd said something of the same ilk about the US marines, I'd be waiting a matter of minutes before a poster refuted it.
So, to my mind, such posts about foreign climes are therefore being tacitly supported by the wider audience.

So without wishing to speak on Manta's behalf, if some non-US members seem sensitive it is because the unsolicited animosity and disrespect by a small minority of TFL members, but largely unchallenged by the majority, eventually starts to wear a bit thin.

It may make some of us think "why am I bothering to lend my moral support, if all I get is a screen-full for my troubles?".
After all, what we'd really like (and I feel confident that this view is shared) is for fellow firearms enthusiasts in the US to enjoy their pursuit unhindered and more importantly for they and their families as well as those of the rest of the nation to be safe and happy, be they pro or anti.

Sorry for the verbose response and it was not personally directed at "btmj", it just seemed to invite my point of view and I felt that was something I needed to say.
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Old January 29, 2013, 07:13 PM   #61
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Well I can understand your frustration, given the point of view you have presented.

I too have read many deplorable remarks and statements on this website about other nations.... statements not directed AT those nations, but callous bigoted off-hand remarks made without a care of who might be reading them.

When I said "No one is saying that "Americans are more tolerant than those bad Europeans". " I should have said "No one in this thread is saying..."
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Old January 30, 2013, 01:50 AM   #62
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Well I can understand your frustration, given the point of view you have presented.

I too have read many deplorable remarks and statements on this website about other nations.... statements not directed AT those nations, but callous bigoted off-hand remarks made without a care of who might be reading them.

When I said "No one is saying that "Americans are more tolerant than those bad Europeans". " I should have said "No one in this thread is saying..."
I appreciate your sentiment and as well as the point you're trying to make, certainly with regards to this particular thread...
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Old January 30, 2013, 03:20 PM   #63
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(Pond, James Pond). I would agree with a lot of what you said in your earlier post. Most are on this forum because of their love of shooting. One of the reasons that i am on this forum is because mostly its well run and has plenty of good advice. Also on the uk shooting forums they don't talk much about handguns after the handgun ban.
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Old January 31, 2013, 04:39 PM   #64
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Do you call the treatment of North American Indians as a good example of tolerance.
Manta, as I recall when this part of American History was being written most Americans still had pretty strong European accents.

Manta do not try to lecture us when we are simple a divergent path of the same swatch of peoples. You are only different in that you think the road you walk is full of sweet smelling roses.

We know what was done, We know who did it. We just are not going to take a lecture from those who think we are really two different peoples. We have not forgot all your potato eating brethren who left your country for ours and had a hand in making it what it is today.

If you are going to call a kettle black, make sure you are a pot and not a kettle, before you open your trap

I'll put this into another light: My Great great whatever Grandad Price was a sailor on a British flagged merchant vessel. They put into port near Quebec and were offloading cargo. Again this what right after the Civil War roughly 1870. The stevedores were unloading cargo and as the family story goes, one was not performing to old Granddad's standards and he berated the man severely. This stevedore was a black man, and as far as Canada was concerned a free man and not a slave. This stevedore gave old Granddad some lip and granddad popped him on the head with a short wooden club and killed him. G-G-Grandad jumped ship when the Mounties came to arrest him and he swam across the river to America, married a Norwegian woman, and started raising Prices.

So there, I am the great great whatever grandson of a English murderer.
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Old January 31, 2013, 05:49 PM   #65
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If you are going to call a kettle black, make sure you are a pot and not a kettle, before you open your trap
I am not lecturing anyone. Read the earlier posts like the one bellow that i was replying to lecturing me on how tolerant the Americans are compared Europeans. PS Perhaps in future you should read the earlier posts and see what context the reply is made before opening your trap.


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Europe is hardly a great example of peace and morality. Niether is Asia or Africa or the Middle East. When you start including genocides then North America is actually a very good example of tolerance and peace.
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So there, I am the great great whatever grandson of a English murderer.
Good for you.

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Old February 1, 2013, 12:45 AM   #66
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Well, I'm coming at this from an outside perspective.
I obey the local laws and use my guns responsibly.
As do I.....

Quote:

But I'm not afraid to explore and consider all options. That doesn't commit anyone to anything, except thought.

If you give them an inch, they'll keep it, and ask for a foot, knowing you'll give them an inch, "as a reasonable compromise", and keep that, too. Repeat ad infinitum.

Quote:

Any laws that come into effect in the US are unlikely to affect me but, as a human being, I would like to see fewer lives being ended prematurely so if a solution were found that was acceptable to all, it would be nice.
The only problem with this is that no law you, I, or Chuck Schumer can dream up will keep bad people form doing bad things. I take the Sandy Hook incident and say, "See: the toughest gun laws in the country did not stop this.", and conclude that more gun laws won't deter people that don't give 3 farts in a windstorm what ANY law says...... and Chuck Schumer sees the same thing and concludes the Laws were not tough enough to prevent it, so they need to be made tougher.

Acceptance of the latter argument makes the fact that it won't stop nutters doing nutty things a guarantee for a total ban, eventually.



Quote:
If the media says it, do you (collectively) have to respond? Why?
Yes. If only one side makes it's case, and the other side is silent, who gets credibility?

Not that explaining things logically will help: a majority of voters in this country are so ill-eduacated they can not make rational political decisions, relying instead on emotion to tell them what to think..... The Other Side understands this, as they brought out a Brain Damaged gunshot victim to make their case for more gun control, despite the fact that the attacker could have caused more carnage with a sedan than he did with his Glock..... gun laws will not deter those who don't care about the laws.

They do not understand the COTUS, and have not a clue what their rights actually are. How can they value something they have no understanding of?
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Old February 1, 2013, 02:04 AM   #67
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The only problem with this is that no law you, I, or Chuck Schumer can dream up will keep bad people form doing bad things.
As it happens the action I personally feel would be a step in the right direction; "safe storeage of guns not in use", would actually make it harder from some of those bad things being perpetrated with a gun, at least.

Rest assured, however, the other thread dealing with storage has plenty of replies outlining why people are opposed to that too...

Quote:
If you give them an inch, they'll keep it, and ask for a foot, knowing you'll give them an inch, "as a reasonable compromise", and keep that, too. Repeat ad infinitum.
So what is your solution if you are unwilling to even discuss the issue?

Quote:
Chuck Schumer sees the same thing and concludes the Laws were not tough enough to prevent it, so they need to be made tougher.
I agree, but I can't blame him too much: everyone does that about one law or another.

Quote:
Yes. If only one side makes it's case, and the other side is silent, who gets credibility?
The problem is people actually give these points credence by trying to argue them, and not trying to debunk them. That is the part that puzzles me.

The "pro-gun control" bunch are leading the agenda by what they put out in the media, and the " pro-gun" bunch are then trying to take bites out of what the others have said.

The "pro-gun control" bunch say that "we know gun control works by looking at gun deaths in the UK", for example. What do the "pro-gun" group do? They then fall over themselves trying to pick holes in the statistics from the UK, instead of pointing out that looking at the UK tells no one anything about what is happening in the States.

I don't feel, at this time, that US gun owners are being well-represented by those who have been chosen, or chosen themselves as spokes-persons for gun-rights...

The only guy I've seen lead and not get side tracked in a discussion was a youngish man (with a somewhat high-ish voice) who was interviewed by Piers Morgan. He did well. He pointed out that issues raised were actually irrelevant, rather than trying to win an arguement about them. More of the same, please!

I hope that gun owners have indeed taken action themselves by writing to their state representatives....
If not, well....
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Old February 1, 2013, 03:24 PM   #68
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So what is your solution if you are unwilling to even discuss the issue?
No solution, because there is nothing wrong from the gun angle. That is the issue.

But there is no issue, and until someone amends the constitution there is no reason to engage in one.

Look, the fed Politicians are stirring the pot, they can't do anything themselves except stir the pot cause they will never get the constitution amended straight up. This way they stir the pot to sway the ignorant and the emotionally driven. The hope for the Mayors and the Governors on their side of the fence to introduce local legislation. The are looking to change the laws from the bottom up, not from the top down.

They insist there must be dialogue, they insist something must be done. Then they point at the inanimate evil gun and shield the "poor disturbed individual". These folks know a lot about how to avoid responsibility. How to shift it onto others' shoulders.

They use our fear that they will "take away our guns" to trick us into bargaining away a little in order to get it all. And sure as the sun will shine, we have people doing exactly that.

How many have already decided that "no more evil black guns is far better then magazine restrictions and loosing all semiautomatic guns." But that is what they will do. It's what they did before.

They want you to say it, like an interrogator after a confession, they want you to say it "OK, maybe I don't need "Assault Weapons", you can have them if I can keep my other semis and mags up to 10 rounds."

They want you to bargain, to argue, to negotiate. They know if we do then they will get something.

But if we do not, if we hold to the 2A, and use it as our shield, then we are ok because by god the 2A says we can keep and bear exactly what they want us to give away.
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Old February 1, 2013, 05:18 PM   #69
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No solution, because there is nothing wrong from the gun angle. That is the issue.
Well, I wouldn't entirely agree with that.
Guns may not be the cause, but given how prominent they are in these shootings you can't say that there is no problem from the gun angle.

If there were equal numbers of mass-killings that included cars, molotov cocktails, baseball bats, farmyard machinery, etc then, yes you could argue that this has nothing to do with guns.

Anyhow, that is somewhat beside the point.
I will repeat what I said earlier: Talking does not automatically equate to negotiating. It does however widen the understanding of boths sides of the equation as well as those in the middle...
But it seems some don't even want to do that. In the meantime the problem will continue.
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Old February 2, 2013, 01:57 AM   #70
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If there were equal numbers of mass-killings that included cars, molotov cocktails, baseball bats, farmyard machinery, etc then, yes you could argue that this has nothing to do with guns.
More people are beaten to death than killed with rifles in this country, yet the cry is to ban "Assault Weapons"? .....No outcry against ....say, Martial Arts schools? Of course not: that's as stupid as banning "Assault Weapons".

Quote:
I will repeat what I said earlier: Talking does not automatically equate to negotiating. It does however widen the understanding of boths sides of the equation as well as those in the middle...
But it seems some don't even want to do that. In the meantime the problem will continue.
The problem, as I see it, will continue, and it would not matter if all guns were banned. Bad people will do bad things, and banning this or that tool won't stop them.

The only sure solution would be the total anihilation of the human race: then no bad people would do bad things.

I'll take my chances with the bad people..... just don't hinder my self defense options, thankee.
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Old February 2, 2013, 03:30 AM   #71
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More people are beaten to death than killed with rifles in this country, yet the cry is to ban "Assault Weapons"? .....No outcry against ....say, Martial Arts schools? Of course not: that's as stupid as banning "Assault Weapons".
That, right there!
Why do the pro-gun corner keep trying to chip away and pro-control arguements when these kinds of points show those arguements to be less than logical?

Simple, well-phrased Yes/No questions put to the pro-control lobby are far more effective at testing the strength of this kind of arguement, IMO

Quote:
Bad people will do bad things, and banning this or that tool won't stop them.
Well, there is a degree of logic to the arguement that if an item is harder to get hold of, it will be harder for a malicious act to be committed with that item.

Granted it does not mean that the intent will away, nor that they won't find an alternative means, as I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, I asked a question of you, to get a clearer perspective:

Quote:
So what is your solution if you are unwilling to even discuss the issue?
And based on the following remark:
Quote:
I'll take my chances with the bad people.....
Can I summise that your response is to leave things as they are and do nothing?
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Old February 2, 2013, 03:47 AM   #72
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Violence is a problem of inequality. The bottom 90% fighting over a smaller and smaller piece of the pie. That's where the problem is and the solution needs to address that. What I can own has no bearing on anything. I don't see kids gunned down in America as any more or less tragic then kids starving or dying from preventable disease or car accidents. Dead is dead and they are all tragic. Unless we want to live under a complete police state where we are not allowed to leave our homes we are going to have tragedy.

No government around the world has moral authority over anyone. They commit wholesale mass murder on a regular basis. Hell they paid for my college and paid to send me around the world to do it. So they are not going to tell me what the best way to defend my family is going to be. I will decide that on my own. When they clean up their act maybe they can have some input.
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Old February 2, 2013, 07:53 PM   #73
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Can I summise that your response is to leave things as they are and do nothing?
If the things proposed will only affect those inclined to follow the laws anyway, and not in affect, say, homicidal maniacs, then no, we should not do them. If nothing is proposed that will actually help the situation, then nothing it is!

Allow the people in these targeted places to have an effective means to defend "them and theirs"? This has been suggested (by me, several times and places, and by the NRA, and others as well) and is certainly not "nothing", but the gun banners will not hear of it.
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Old February 2, 2013, 08:10 PM   #74
amathis
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Join Date: March 20, 2009
Location: Champlain Valley, Vermont
Posts: 158
Comparing countries with each other is somewhat unfair.

There are so many factors at stake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Ooa98FHuaU0
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Old February 2, 2013, 10:57 PM   #75
Nitro96
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just my two cents,, look also at the difference in population of the US and singled out European countries
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