The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 21, 2013, 03:14 PM   #1
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 844
US firearms deaths compared to other countries?

This was brought up in a conversation, we were talking about how America compares to others like those in Europe and how America appears to have the highest fatality rate when it comes to firearms.

I've read and seen several statistical analysis between the UK and Australia, and have also heard the argument that we can't compare our crime rates that involve firearms to those countries due to the way they track their crimes.

So the question is, how do we stack up to other "civilized" nations when it comes to homicide involving firearms when previous comparisons are apparently now not a valid argument.

I'm not entirely sure where to begin on a topic like this. China is one I can think of but they've banned firearms all together and the frequent argument I get back when bringing China into the mix is that the criminals there using knives, axes, cleavers etc. came up with less fatalities than the mass shootings with a firearm. (Which doesn't make it any less horrific IMO)

Thoughts? Suggestions?
Kimio is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 04:06 PM   #2
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
So the question is, how do we stack up to other "civilized" nations when it comes to homicide involving firearms when previous comparisons are apparently now not a valid argument.
All countries are civilized. What elitist BS were these people coming up with that was treating some other countries as somehow "lesser" because they are not in a the US or Europe? That is pure garbage.

That said countries were firearms ownership has nearly always been banned (instead of just recently) has resulted in abysmal records of freedom in those countries. There is a direct correlation between the level of firearm freedom and the level of individual freedom. Crime is also astronomically high in countries where firearms are not allowed or have always been forbidden. Crime rises as soon as firearms are banned and continues to rise (in nearly every case).

Look at this chart:



ETA: The people you are discussing this with say the numbers are now "invalid" because it is a losing argument for them. Strange because for years the argument was those numbers, until they went against them.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.

Last edited by Alabama Shooter; January 21, 2013 at 04:32 PM.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 07:53 PM   #3
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 844
Probably could have worded that better, perhaps as developed?

Anyway, like you, I stated that I don't believe that we have the highest fatality rate with firearms, sure perhaps when we are compared to countries that have heavy gun control laws or out right bans we beat them out, but they have equally if not higher violent crime rates that utilize other weapons.
Kimio is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 08:06 PM   #4
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,702
The thing is, to an anti-gun person anyhow, it is somehow worse to be shot to death than to be beaten to death......

They all holler about "gun homicides", as if the above were true..... dead is dead, and I'll not be beaten to death, unless I have more attackers than i have bullets to give them.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 08:12 PM   #5
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
According to the Wikipedia list we are in tenth place for all gun deaths and a bit lower for guns employed homicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

BUT

The wiki list is missing some small countries like:

Russia
Several of the Stans
Syria
Libya
Iraq
Iran
Egypt

or

Anywhere that a lot of people die from gun deaths where guns are already banned that would make the list look badly skewed where countries that ban guns have a real high rate of gun deaths.

Also according to the UN many countries under report violence and crime to the point where there is no really telling for sure. So essentially the wiki list is a pack of lies and half truths.

I will point out that there is just as much validity in comparing the US to Russia, if such numbers were available to any other European Country.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 08:15 PM   #6
Kimio
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Utah
Posts: 844
Appreciate the input there AS, kind of a shame that it's hard to find reliable information at times.

But I agree, history has shown that places that forbid its citizenry to arm and defend themselves tend to have higher crime and usually are easier to oppress that those that allow the populace to arm themselves.
Kimio is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 08:59 PM   #7
Come and take it.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 999
As you move away from a society where civilians have guns to one where the state has the guns you will see some conflicting reporting.

For instance although civilian caused firearm related deaths may be down, those caused by the state go up. Obviously deaths caused by the executive branch arent considered murders or crimes so they won't be listed in the crime statistics.
Come and take it. is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 09:03 PM   #8
globemaster3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2006
Posts: 1,194
Just whatever you do, don't quote Wikipedia. It's the poorest reference out there for verifiable information.
globemaster3 is online now  
Old January 21, 2013, 09:11 PM   #9
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,062
Quote:
The people you are discussing this with say the numbers are now "invalid" because it is a losing argument for them.
They might be able to say that if the stats you showed were from, say, the NRA. They're not. That study [pdf] was done by Italian researchers.
__________________
In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer.
--Albert Camus
Tom Servo is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 09:19 PM   #10
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
That study [pdf] was done by Italian researchers.
Of sure Italy, a country full of fascists.

See, I just discredited their argument by calling them Nazis. People who have rabid beliefs always discount or discredit anything that stands in the way of those beliefs. It is the only way they know peace.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 09:27 PM   #11
BUFF
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2011
Location: Augusta, KS
Posts: 220
I didn't see Mexico on that list.

As far as I know guns are outlawed there.
BUFF is offline  
Old January 21, 2013, 09:35 PM   #12
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
I didn't see Mexico on that list.
Number six overall and the murder rate is 4.5X the US rate. The data is badly skewed because there is no suicide rate and therefore there are likely thousands of more gun deaths annually. But that can all be explained by the thugs and criminal organizations selling guns in the US to criminal gangs.

Now how you explain the fact that the criminal organizations in the US that have them don't just use them to kill people in the US is a head scratcher.

It does not seem to make any sense that they would have to send the guns to Mexico and then kill people with them. It is a very inefficient process to say the least.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 12:47 AM   #13
Cowboyflyer
Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2013
Location: LA (Lower Arkansas)
Posts: 17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qedZV48R238


Great article on gun stats.

Hope this link works...
Cowboyflyer is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 02:53 PM   #14
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,274
I've noticed how some anti-gun folks will talk about gun homicides then switch to gun deaths with the implication being that it's the same thing. Our overall suicide rate isn't out of line with other industrialized countries but a higher percentage of our suicides use guns. I think some folks deliberately confuse homicides, gun homicides and gun deaths in an attempt to portray places with less restrictive laws in a bad light.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old January 22, 2013, 06:19 PM   #15
tyme
Staff
 
Join Date: October 13, 2001
Posts: 3,152
Quote:
Also according to the UN many countries under report violence and crime to the point where there is no really telling for sure. So essentially the wiki list is a pack of lies and half truths.
So true. Who believes crime rates being reported by countries like Russia, anyway?

Utah's murder rate is close to the UK's. SLC is no London, but it's a real, major city.

Then there's Vermont, which doesn't have as much in the way of urbanization, but it has even more liberal concealed carry policy than Utah. It has a lower murder rate than the U.K.

An interesting counterpoint to those two low-population states is New Mexico. It has a murder rate of 8.7 per 100k (vs 1.1-1.3 for the previously mentioned countries/states, based on the wikipedia intentional homicide list)

What's different about New Mexico compared to Vermont and Utah?

It's all about sociology: gangs, drug distribution, economics, and poor criminal justice policy driving crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#United_States
__________________
“The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...”
“Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...”
“It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.”

Last edited by tyme; January 22, 2013 at 06:38 PM.
tyme is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 12:22 PM   #16
Double J
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2007
Location: So. Illinois
Posts: 547
I hope we never get too civilized. Savages took care to protect their families. The so called civilized people can't seem to even keep mama and papa together long enough to raise a family.
--Grandpa told me," Our people didn't ride horses and take scalps, we lopped off heads and ate the ponies."
Double J is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 12:26 PM   #17
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
Looking into gun death rates only plays into the grabbers hands. It would be like comparing automobile deaths between the US and some primitive remote Amazon tribe. The fact that the US has more guns means there will be more deaths with guns than other grabbing countries. What's far more useful (and the way you should direct the conversation with a grabber) is comparing violent crime rates between the countries. England and Wales has almost 4 times the violent crime that the US has.
Gaerek is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 12:48 PM   #18
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
The fact that the US has more guns means there will be more deaths with guns than other grabbing countries.
This statement is completely false. The countries where guns are banned and seriously restricted have the highest death rates from guns of any in the world. Why do we keep giving ground on this?
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 01:20 PM   #19
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,250
Quote:
This statement is completely false. The countries where guns are banned and seriously restricted have the highest death rates from guns of any in the world.
That statement is completely false. The gun deaths per 100.000 is a lot higher in the USA compared with the UK.
manta49 is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 01:32 PM   #20
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
That statement is completely false. The gun deaths per 100.000 is a lot higher in the USA compared with the UK.
So what? There are 193 other countries in the world besides the UK and the US. Many of them have much higher rates of "gun deaths".

This whole concept of comparing everything we do to the UK, Australia or Canada really needs to stop.
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 04:21 PM   #21
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
Quote:
This statement is completely false. The countries where guns are banned and seriously restricted have the highest death rates from guns of any in the world. Why do we keep giving ground on this?
Is this an emotional response? Or are you just repeating some statistic you found on a gun blog or gun board? Your statement is wrong. Please show me some statistics to prove your case. A disarmed society means fewer accidental and suicidal gun deaths. Gun murders should be theoretically higher, but we don't always see that. The UK has a far lower gun murder rate than the US. Mexico is higher than the US, so there's no hard fast rule. The US is #10 on gun deaths in the world per 100,000. Most of the countries above us have either heavy gun control, but a drug/cartel/warlord problem.

What is unequivocally proven, however, is that violent crime rates (with murder included) go up dramatically when you take guns away. We need to stay away from talking about death rates with grabbers (because there is evidence of both sides using that) and instead look at violent crime. That's the argument we CAN win.

Quote:
So what? There are 193 other countries in the world besides the UK and the US. Many of them have much higher rates of "gun deaths".

This whole concept of comparing everything we do to the UK, Australia or Canada really needs to stop.
Actually...there is only 9 countries above the US in this. We compare to the UK, Canada and Australia because we have somewhat similar societies, where the amount of gun control is the only real variable. More gun control means more violent crime, not always more murders. Stop using deaths as a measure because its so easy to counter. Use violent crime. They cannot argue against that.
Gaerek is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 05:19 PM   #22
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
You know, Russia has about 5 times the US murder rate, but is much more heavily restricted. More restricted than the UK.

And even if you factored out all firearms related murders in the US, we still have a much higher homicide rate than the UK. Think about that- in a nation with 270 million guns, where guns are easily accessible, there are about 2500 cases a year in which someone just didn't have one lying around handy, or was in too much of a hurry to go buy one, and decided to kill someone with whatever else was lying around.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 05:23 PM   #23
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,702
Quote:
This statement is completely false. The countries where guns are banned and seriously restricted have the highest death rates from guns of any in the world.
Why the continued fixation on "gun deaths"? That's playing into the hands of the gun banners.

Here's a serious question for those who want to use the "gun death" statistic:

Is a person in England any less dead because they were beaten to death with a pool cue than they were if they were shot? Are people who are beheaded by the Taliban in A-stan any less dead than if they were shot? Are the people tortured to death by the drug cartels in Mexico any less dead than if they were shot? Seriously?

On the other hand, those who have a gun and a willingness to use it, while they may be shot, they can't be tortured to death or have their head chopped off until they are first disarmed.

I'll keep my gun, thankee.....
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 06:38 PM   #24
Alabama Shooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
Quote:
Actually...there is only 9 countries above the US in this.
You did not read the preceding posts. Do you really believe that gun deaths are fewer in Sudan or Syria than in the US? In these countries the citizenry has almost no gun rights.

Nearly all of the countries with ultra low rates of gun ownership and high rates of gun deaths were removed from the list. I can see why the anti's are so successful with spreading this.

Quote:
We compare to the UK, Canada and Australia because we have somewhat similar societies, where the amount of gun control is the only real variable.
How do you define similar? The UK and Australia are located on islands with a vast majority homogenous population. Australia is 94% European and Asian. The UK is 93% the same ethnicity. These are pasteurized cultures.

The US has eleven million+ of illegal aliens living in it at best guess. That is actually half the population of Australia. You think the only variable is gun control? Have you been to any of these places?
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday.
Alabama Shooter is offline  
Old January 23, 2013, 06:39 PM   #25
Tedecho
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2012
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 10
I also agree it's pretty stupid people are seperating murders into catagories. Like 1,000 people murdered with a bat, axe, for fist is any different than murdered with a firearm. It's still 1,000 murdered.
Tedecho is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13166 seconds with 7 queries