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Old January 19, 2013, 07:53 PM   #1
ndking1126
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Most likely culprit?

Took my new-to-me Savage 111 in .270 out for the first time today. No accutrigger, cheaper Bushnell scope shooting 150 Grn Remington Core-Lokt (rounded bullets, not even the pointed ones). I was shooting off a bipod on big cement table, and had towels folded up under the stock. Overall it was pretty solid, although the chair was a little too low for the height of the table.

At 100 yards, I had a 4 shot group where 3 were in a little over an inch and one was about 4" high. I had a second group that was 5 shots, 3 were in about a 1.75" group and I had 2 that were about 4" high. Very random that both groups had fliers 4" high. A third group was strung out horizontally, but I think that was me with bad trigger control because I was getting a little cold.

The question is about the 4" fliers. I'm no trained sniper, but most days I do pretty good. One guess is the scope. Have you ever heard or seen a scope that would bounce around its zero, but bounce consistently? The one scope I've had that went bad was literally all over the place. The second theory is the bullets, specifically because of the wind. Can rounded bullets be affected that much at only 100 yards? It was windy and blowing from about my 10 to my 4. Those are the rounds that came with the rifle, I would have never bought them myself.

One other note, when I was shooting at 25 yards to get a close sighting in, the first 3 shots were amazingly accurate, even considering it was at 25 yards. There was very little wind when I first got out there. I was pretty impressed and was starting to think I had completely lucked out. Because of this I'm leaning towards wind pushing the rounded bullets around more than I'm used to it pushing my normal pointed ones.

I'll replace the scope eventually, but I wanted ask because this kind of a weird problem I've never seen before.

Sorry for the long post!
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Old January 19, 2013, 08:11 PM   #2
Joe Chicago
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The scope would not account for the flyers. The cause may be that the barrel is heating up by the fourth round, changing the point of impact, or the rifle does not like that ammo. I would try letting the barrel cool between shots and trying different ammo brands/bullet weights.
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Old January 19, 2013, 08:36 PM   #3
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I also believe it is probably the barrel heating up.
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Old January 19, 2013, 09:02 PM   #4
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I didn't mention that I was taking shots slowly and also waiting inbetween groups. I would sit back and wait for them to make the range cold, walk down, come back, etc. Also, the flyers weren't the last shots of each group. For the 4 shot group, it was second. for the 5 shot, it was second and I think 4th, but maybe 5th.

I'm starting to reload, so I'll probably try some 130 gr Ballistic Tips or Ballistics Silvertips.

And if I wasn't clear on my first post, this is not a huge deal to me because I'm going to change ammo and the scope before I'm ready to take this thing hunting, I just hadn't seen this problem before.
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Old January 19, 2013, 10:23 PM   #5
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In that case, I'm stumped. 4 inches is a lot. Did you check the screws on the stock? I'd say shoot another day and see if you still have the problem.
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Old January 19, 2013, 10:45 PM   #6
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Possibly your bipod.
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Old January 19, 2013, 10:56 PM   #7
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Can you ask someone else to shoot it and see if they get the same scenario? That would quickly rule out the user error factor.

Then, of course, repeat with other ammo. Rule out the "gun doesn't like this ammo" factor.

How's the condition of the crown? The bbl and rifling in general? As long as you're taking time between rounds, how about run a patch down the bbl between rounds. Maybe the rifling is (sometimes) peeling off a piece of jacket which is then getting pushed out by a subsequent round.

All just wild guesses here. Only time I've had anything similar is with sudden and strong winds with long range 22 that had time to slow considerably by the time it got near the target.


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Old January 20, 2013, 02:04 AM   #8
Dan Newberry
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Remington Corelokt ammo is not known for it's accuracy...

but I'd say the real culprit is the lack of a rear bag, whereas towels just are not stable enough...
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:07 AM   #9
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Scorch, care to elaborate? That's an interesting idea I hadn't thought about, but I can't think of any way it would affect the POI by 4". I was shooting off a solid, flat, purpose built, cement table and other than one or two shots I knew I pulled, everything felt right.

SgtLumpy, lately getting someone to go shooting with me has been tough.. schedules just haven't lined up. I'll keep trying though because I'd really like to see if it will do it again. I didn't even drink Dr. Pepper this morning before heading out. I don't know.. it's definitely different.

The barrel, rifle, and crown all seem to be in factory condition. I cleaned it thoroughly before I shot it and I found it to be pretty clean. I'm hoping that means it was taken care of.
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Old January 20, 2013, 02:19 AM   #10
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Dan, the towels would make sense as that would directly affect POI up and down. Like I mentioned, the shots did feel pretty good but the targets don't lie.. something went wrong. The towels were a bit of an improv because of how high the top of the table was compared to my seat. I guess I do need to finally break down and get a rear bag.

I saw a guy shooting off a led sled standing up. It looked like an akward angle for him.. to tall to sit down and to short to stand up. I definitely think the height of the table was the biggest fail for this new range.
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Old January 20, 2013, 09:21 AM   #11
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I thought you said the table was purpose built for shooting,but the chair was low? What happens when you shoot a 10 round group or 20. Shooting off a bipod and towels in a chair that's too low with just plain hunting ammo doesn't add up to the best chances for accuracy. Your bipod most likely makes the table seem too high or chair too low. my guess is that the equipment you have is capable of doing the job and you are somehow moving the gun when pulling the trigger.

Your theory about the rounded bullets being affected by wind at 100 yds causing a shot to go 4" high is unlikely. You would have to have a hell of a wind to affect a bullet 4" at 100 yds - especially upwards.

The real answer is that it could be a number of things, but attention to details, eliminating the most likely suspects and lots of practice should reveal the correct answer. From my point of view, you are doing pretty good with that set up.... Everyone has "fliers"
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Old January 20, 2013, 09:31 AM   #12
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Take the bipod off and shoot off bags. A cement table and a bipod are a recipe for poor grouping. If your Savage has the tupperware stock it will only make it a LOT worse. I'm not knocking Savage, I own several of them. They will shoot but not under the conditions you're challenging them with. You're getting way too much "bounce and flex" with the way you're going about it. If you have the tupperware, don't put any pressure on the front of the gun. Just let it sit on the bags in the exact same spot each time and make sure you're not putting different pressure on the back of the stock from shot-to-shot. I've replaced the tupperware on two of my Savages and the groups shrank like you'd never believe.
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Old January 20, 2013, 03:42 PM   #13
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NoSecondBest, what stocks have you used if you don't mind me asking? I replaced one with a B&C Medalist Tactical which I'm very happy with. That was a short action though. I'm looking for one that will be good in the field. I was considering a laminate classic from Boyds, but on their new website I can't find any for long action centerfeed detach box magazines. The other one, which a lot of people don't like, is the hogue with aluminum bedding block. Anything other good options I'm missing?

Oryx, yeah I wasn't expecting much in terms of accuracy yesterday. Like I said, I never would have bought those bullets, but since they came with the gun I'll shoot them and have some shells to reload with. I like shooting with a bipod, but given the situation I'll take everyone's advice and find something else to shoot off of next time out. I have no doubt the gun is capable of good groups, I'll just have to do a little experimenting. Getting quality practice time in is another huge hurtle for me thanks to my work schedule. Also, wind gusts out here in CO do get pretty crazy. 40mph gusts are reasonably common, and we've had them as high at 60mph. I would have guessed yesterday they were around 30mph.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I think we've beat this question to death.. I just need to get out to the range and make a few changes.
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Old January 20, 2013, 03:51 PM   #14
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I wouldn't worry about a couple of groups , with a new (to you ) rifle . There's no way you have acclimated to that rifle , or ammo for that matter , with one box of shells ! Try some different ammo if you must , but more importantly , shoot it a couple hundred times before passing any kind of judgement on it . Make sure the bore isn't copper fouled too .
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Old January 21, 2013, 07:32 PM   #15
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You don't sound like a new shooter, so I would double check all the base & ring screws. It's best to remove the scope, check your base screws and start over to rule out any loose screws. I'm a benchrest shooter only, last summer one of my shooting buddies started shooting poor groups with his old reliable. When I asked, what's going on he said my scope just craped out, he was ready to send the scope back. When I was looking at his rifle,I found his base windage screw was so loose you could turn it with your finger. Once you find the problem you feel so much better. In most cases it's not the rifle. Double check everything, hope I helped in some way. Be Safe Chris
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Old January 22, 2013, 04:44 PM   #16
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ND, just load that bi-pod either to you or away until you find what the rifle likes, and on the other hand like Dan mentioned that ammo isn't know to be the most accurate, and 1.75 inches at 25 yds seems to me the rifle doesn't like the ammo, so switch to something else.
My .270 win loves 130n grain pills so much it's hard to get excited about testing heavier bullets through it, but I got some 140 grain Partitions to load and test, hell it might like them even better!
And the last thing I can think of besides shooting skills is the scope and it's mounts, the integrity of these three things come into question when the groups are that wide.
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Old January 24, 2013, 01:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Scorch, care to elaborate? That's an interesting idea I hadn't thought about, but I can't think of any way it would affect the POI by 4".
If you do not pre-load your bipod the same way for each shot, it can bounce away from the hard surface, just like a rifle forearm or barrel resting against something hard.
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Old January 24, 2013, 09:19 AM   #18
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Like the others said, probably a combination of likely factors...

But, let's start with one that hasn't been discussed...

It's a used rifle...

And an older one at that. The AccuTrigger has been around for ten years. What's the condition of the bore, and crown?

What type of cleaning did you do on it after purchase?

I have a pre-AccuTrigger Savage with the adjustable 3-screw...you can tweak them to be pretty decent, but if you haven't- it might have a pretty hard pull.

You also (obviously) don't have the AccuStock- so what stock is the action in- is it bedded, or at least, have pillars installed?

It could be as simple as the barrel and stock on an older rifle..
Not to mention shooter error, ammo, etc. as mentioned on top of that.
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Old January 24, 2013, 10:27 AM   #19
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The first fixes I'd do to the rifle wouldn't be to the rifle. I'd put it on decent front and rear bags. See how it shoots like that before you start your tinkering with the rifle itself. Then try some different factory ammo - some of the high quality stuff. And yes, tighten all the hardware snugly. Scorch's suggestion about taking off the bipod sounds like a good idea once you have the shooting bags.

As for replacement stocks, I have one of the Hogue stocks on a rifle. Great stock for shooting, but it is kind of heavy. Next stock I buy, though I don't know which make I would choose, would be synthetic, attractive, and very light. I think that also means it'll be very expensive.
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Old January 25, 2013, 11:16 AM   #20
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A bipod on a big cement table? Your gun is jumping. I've seen it happen before.
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