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Old January 21, 2013, 09:23 AM   #26
chucknbach
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Just think of all the lives that could be saved if everyone was locked in a padded room and fed through a slot.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:25 AM   #27
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Excellent analysis John. Thank you for taking the time to put it together.
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Old January 21, 2013, 10:01 AM   #28
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Actually, we need to use it daily, even repeatedly.

Driving while intoxicated kills 10,000 people a year. Alcohol needs to be regulated exactly as the anti's propose for guns - after all, if it saves one life, it's worth it.

Mandatory three day wait for purchase. If it saves one life . .
Mandatory capacity limit equal to three beers. If it saves one life . .
Registered buyers list, with full and complete documentation each time, to show they were in possession while driving. If it saves one life . . .

There a law sitting on the DOT desk about mandatory requirements for a back up camera. 160 children a year are killed because the driver (usually Mom) can't see where they are. That's 260% of the number shot in school. Ask why it hasn't been forced on the automakers yet, after all, if it saves one life . . .

We could go on for pages with examples. The point is, USE IT! The more you use it, the quicker it becomes a tired cliche, and someone who might have been responsive to it initially will quickly be aware of how it's used to take advantage of them.

After all, if it saves one life, it's worth it!
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Old January 21, 2013, 10:39 AM   #29
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I played in my band at church yesterday. I went to greet some folks who are winter visitors. One of the wives asked me what I did in my spare time. I told her I play a lot of music and I shoot a lot.

They looked at me like I must be nuts.

I won't bore you with the conversation but the outcome was fairly predictable.

They do not understand how anyone would want to own firearms and would like to see them just go away.

While the conversation was civil. . .I really wanted to slap some sense into them.

Sadly, there are a lot of people who feel the same way. Some we know and some we don't.

It does not matter that cars and alcohol kill many more than guns and in each of those cases we hold the PERSON accountable. With guns, that anger is directed at an inanimate object.

It just defies logic.
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Old January 21, 2013, 10:47 AM   #30
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If it "saves just one life" and costs $500 million dollars, we can't afford it.

If we were talking about something that could prevent homicide, rape, and aggravated assaults nationwide, then we might be talking.... oh right, firearms can already do that today for no extra money.
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Old January 21, 2013, 11:31 AM   #31
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44 AMP nailed it:
Quote:
On reflection, it seems that the claim of "if it saves just one life.." is actually valid. But the lives saved will most often be those of the criminal attackers!
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Old January 21, 2013, 02:09 PM   #32
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Excellent analysis. "If it saves one life" is the same lazy and cheap rhetorical dishonesty as "it's for the children."
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Old January 21, 2013, 02:20 PM   #33
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Whenever I hear that I ask how many lives would have been saved if our fathers (grand fathers in most cases now) did not fight WWII. No need to elaborate.

Bob
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Old January 21, 2013, 02:23 PM   #34
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We are stuck with other peoples fears. Their afraid so want to take action and "control" their environment, so they can "feel" safe.
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Old January 21, 2013, 02:23 PM   #35
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Re this ïf it saves one life"", a couple of things come to mind.

1. The question of will it comes to mind.

2. Sound suspiciously like "do it for the children", which was and remains another load of crap.
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Old January 21, 2013, 02:47 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
. . . .On reflection, it seems that the claim of "if it saves just one life.." is actually valid. But the lives saved will most often be those of the criminal attackers! . . . .
This is dead on! It's not just about how many lives are saved, but which ones, as well.
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Old January 21, 2013, 03:39 PM   #37
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As of 1998, airbags saved 22 people for every 1 person they killed, according to the NHTSA. Firearms are also used to save more lives than they are used to take unjustly.
And that's another concept a lot of people cannot fathom: the justified killing of another human being.
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Old January 21, 2013, 05:02 PM   #38
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"If it saves one life" could be used as a reason to curtail any first Ten Ammendments in the name of the 'common good', something America seems all too willing to do these days.


We violate the 1st because all those protesters might just hurt someone.
The 2nd because the US Constutution apparently isn't law in NY,CA,MD,NJ
The 4th because they might be selling DRUGS.
The 5th because again they MIGHT BE SELLING DRUGS!
The 6th because he's a 'terrist.
The 8th because 3 strikes is 3 strikes.
etc.

But if it just saves one life isn't it worth it?

Answer: No. Americans didn't fight and die for a piecemeal Constitution.





How about we just not screw with the bill of rights?
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Old January 21, 2013, 07:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
It does not matter that cars and alcohol kill many more than guns and in each of those cases we hold the PERSON accountable. With guns, that anger is directed at an inanimate object.

It just defies logic.
As much as those same people that firmly believe that in all the Amendments except the Second, the word PEOPLE means individuals. In the Second the word PEOPLE means militia.

Drives me insane having that argument, and I've done it many times.
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Old January 21, 2013, 08:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
... in all the Amendments except the Second, the word PEOPLE means individuals. In the Second the word PEOPLE means militia.
Excellent point Stevie-Ray! Well said.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:06 PM   #41
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Quote:
Drives me insane having that argument, and I've done it many times.
Wish I could have an argument with someone. Living in a coal mining town, where every owns a gun. It just doesn't happen. We all hate Obama's logic.
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Old January 21, 2013, 09:34 PM   #42
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Why the statement:“We must do it my way if it saves even one life.” is the enemy of rational decision-making, how it cuts off constructive debate and how it attempts to vilify all who oppose the person making the statement.
That's just it: the other side is not interested in a logical debate, for they would lose as they have in the past, because logic is on our side.

We are getting railroaded by the uninformed masses, and it is happening because tens of millions have been convinced by our "education" system that we live in a "Democracy", that you can depend upon the government to give you everthing you might need, and that other people's property and rights can be taken because it is expedient to some popular "need".

These "needs' can be manufactured whenever necessary, with the help of an effective political machine and a compliant press ..... it has happened before and it always ends up the same: The State amasses power at the expense of the Individual..... "If it only saves one life ....." is an excuse to stop thinking .... and an excuse for the State to do anything it wants, to whoever it wants, whenever, just so long as they can whip up popular support.
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Old February 26, 2013, 12:21 AM   #43
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A couple of other treatments of this general topic with slightly different twists.

This author calls it the "Fallacy of Infinite Value", and points out that life, while valuable, is not infinitely valuable as the "If it saves one life..." argument implies. Society makes daily decisions that weigh the cost of human life against various returns.
http://scruffylookingcatherder.com/?tag=/Infinite+Value

This author approaches the fallacy from the standpoint that while the "If it saves one life..." argument attempts to imply that human life is being weighed against something less valuable, it is very often true that a more careful analysis will demonstrate that there is actually a life vs. life balance that is not immediately obvious.
http://www.pathsoflove.com/blog/2013...mensurability/

For example, the argument that banning privately owned guns must be done if it saves one life, generally ignores the fact that privately owned guns are frequently used to save lives. In the final analysis, banning them could actually cost more lives than it saves.
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Old February 26, 2013, 01:05 AM   #44
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The argument itself makes me sick, and is probably the most Un-American thing to ever come out of a presidents mouth. Obama is basically saying if giving up your freedoms saves just one life it is worth it. Well, hate to break it to you buddy, but our country was founded by people GIVING their lives to protect our freedoms, and Obama wants to take them away with the stroke of a pen. Absolutely disgusting.
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Old February 26, 2013, 02:00 AM   #45
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I feel the same way; its is a false "feel-good" statement that sounds nice at first, but really is not a logical idea.

What If it saves one child's life, but allows hundreds or thousands to be stripped of their freedoms and rights?

It goes along with the concept, punish the masses for the mistakes of the few.

what disgusted me the most was when Obama signed his EO's while surrounded by children he used to parade his (I will call it) "Anti-Rights" orders.
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Old February 26, 2013, 10:24 AM   #46
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Reading the first article linked by JohnSKa is also related, though certainly not identical, to one of the arguments that I have raised. I don't know if it has a proper title, but I think of it as the "value judgment" argument.

The anti-gun folks keep saying "if it saves only one life, X must be done!" One problem with this thinking is that it operates on the assumption that all lives are of equal value. I take the (politically unpopular) position that some lives are actually more valuable than others. I've been called out for saying that I don't really care about the statistics on "gun deaths." (as though those are really any more problematic than, say, "chisel deaths.") There's a reason that I'm not all that concerned about the numbers, though. I've made a value decision: I value the lives of my friends and family members more than I value the lives of methheads who kick in doors at 3 a.m. That is one of several reasons that I own firearms.

When I have time to illustrate this principle, I use what I call the Magical Gun Law example:
Quote:
Assume, just for a moment, that Congress could pass a law that would magically eliminate all gun deaths in this country instantly, except for one. Now assume that the one gun death is your child. How would you vote?
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:11 AM   #47
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If you are interested in the psych world's scholarly literature's main book on exactly this type of stupid decision making

Kahneman, D. (2011). Thinking, fast and slow. New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux.

Shows how the emotional outweighs the rational.
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:22 AM   #48
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If it saves ONE life...

Stole your post spats. I like it.
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Old February 26, 2013, 11:41 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
The anti-gun folks keep saying "if it saves only one life, X must be done!" One problem with this thinking is that it operates on the assumption that all lives are of equal value. I take the (politically unpopular) position that some lives are actually more valuable than others.
Politically unpopular, yes.

Actuarially, not so much. The insurance industry (and the courts) do it all the time.

And this is where the whole thing breaks down. When you compare the cost of these measures with the value, in actuarial terms, of one child's life... it's absurd.

But I'm really, really careful in picking the people with whom I use this argument. Most hate it.

"Priceless" is one of my least favorite words.
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Old February 27, 2013, 08:53 AM   #50
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Has anyone given much thought to the end game?

We have seen that gun bans don't have the desired effect. Assuming the worst and law abiding citizens are disarmed AND violence does not decrease, what comes next?

I don't think I will see it in my lifetime but people who really love the ability and freedom to do what you want when you want and to go anywhere you want without having to show your papers are going to have to remain vigilant.

Maybe I am paranoid but what I see is a move by some to have total control over others without the fear of armed pushback.

I would love to be left alone. It seems that far too many people just do not grasp that.
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