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Old January 18, 2013, 11:32 AM   #1
jd70
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Selling your reloads?

Yesterday one of my wife's friends who knows I reload asked her if I would sell them some of my 9mm reloads. I declined because I don't know this person at all. Plus I've never sold my reloads, and don't know the legal problems that might come out of it. Anyone here have this experience?
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Old January 18, 2013, 11:39 AM   #2
steveno
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first of if you sell reloads you federal license to do so and you had better have a lot of liability insurance. also check local ordinances. in your situation that looks like bad idea
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Old January 18, 2013, 11:44 AM   #3
jaguarxk120
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Federal law says you can reload for your self and no one else.

Selling reloading ammunition to a stranger is bad juju.
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Old January 18, 2013, 11:50 AM   #4
Mike Irwin
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Well, it's not as clear as that...

From ATF's website:

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

A: Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

Livelihood generally means that you derive a significant portion of your income from the ongoing sale of an item or activity. There's no litmus test as to what portion that may be, but it would be hard, if not impossible, for anyone to contend that selling two or three $15 boxes of .38 ammo, total profit of $25, constitutes a livelihood.

But, note that the statement is "livelihood AND profit," which means to me that BOTH elements would have to be true for you to need a license.

If you sold them at cost?

BIG grey area, but one that seems to fall outside of the wording of the law.

A private individual selling the occasional box of reloads is really (or should be) analagous to the private individual selling the occasional gun from his personal collection.


It would be very good practice, though, to not let anyone have your reloads on the noted grounds of personal liability.
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Last edited by Mike Irwin; January 18, 2013 at 12:08 PM.
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Old January 18, 2013, 11:55 AM   #5
Mike Irwin
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"Federal law says you can reload for your self and no one else."

No. It doesn't.
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Old January 18, 2013, 12:15 PM   #6
jd70
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Good to know what the law actually says. Still won't do it, If I make a mistake it only harms me.
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Old January 18, 2013, 12:18 PM   #7
Mike Irwin
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"Still won't do it, If I make a mistake it only harms me."

Very smart.
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Old January 18, 2013, 12:45 PM   #8
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While I agree that loading only for yourself is a good rule of thumb, I have, in the past, worked with a friend in order to work up a safe load for one of his handguns. Once we established that safe load, I would load his brass for him whenever he needed it... which fortunately happened to be not frequently. It was usually a box or two every few months. All I asked from him was to buy the dies, and the components, with the understanding the dies belonged to me, and I would use the components only on his loads.
Was I breaking any laws? I don't think so. Would I do it again? Probably.
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Old January 18, 2013, 02:28 PM   #9
RC20
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Easy one on the liability.

If it goes boom then you can be sued. Not remotely worth it. I work mechanical maintenance and my mantra is, no I will not work on your furnace. Why not? Liability issues. Oh we would not sue, yea right. Care to put that on paper? Get the look..... Right up there with, of Fifi doesn't bite.......

I only do it for my brothers and its safe load stuff, nothing pushed to the maximum even if they asked for it.

For anyone else, I would not reload for them nor let them use mine.
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Old January 18, 2013, 02:40 PM   #10
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My high power shooting partner uses my handloads to good effect. Of course I tested his rifle to make sure they were in fact safe in his rifle (he has a Wylde Chamber, mine is a 5.56 chamber).

I wouldn't let a stranger do it, but it was another shooter who gave me 22 reloads of 80gr Amax's to shoot at 500 one time that convinced me to pick those bullets up for my 600 yard load.

I'm not sure about pistol reloads though, most pistol ammo is cheap enough that the risk/reward ratio for using someone else's reloads is not worth it.

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Old January 18, 2013, 04:22 PM   #11
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The liability one gets tossed up every single time.

Remember that...you can get sued by ANYONE, for ANYTHING.
Does their case have merit? Can they prove that it does?

If you want to take the safest route... stay indoors. Guns are dangerous. Handloads are dangerous. The sunshine can burn your skin. There are germs in the outside world. Don't talk to people.

The italicized portion is extreme, and meant in jest. It's not reality.

If you are new to handloading, focus all your efforts in to what you are doing and spend a few YEARS getting better at it. When you can honestly consider yourself a fairly practiced and skilled handloader, visit the issue again and see what you come up with.

And remember that the Fed's greatest motivation to making you obtain a manufacturer's FFL for producing and selling ammo is not because ammo can be dangerous... it's because they want to TAX you for your efforts.
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Old January 18, 2013, 05:48 PM   #12
Mike Irwin
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"Remember that...you can get sued by ANYONE, for ANYTHING."

Yes, you certainly can. Life is one big exercise in calculated risk.

If you calculate that your reloading processes are such that you will never screw up and load a bad one, more power to you, go forth and sell whatever you want to whomever you want, and pray that you never get one of these...



That's what happens when you break concentration and load 9.8 grains of WW 231 behind a 230-gr. lead bullet. My limited research on the whole incident indicates that pressure could have peaked out somewhere around 70,000 PSI. Why my 1911 isn't scrap, I don't know.

When I did that I had been reloading for almost 30 years, over 100,000 rounds of rifle, handgun, and shotgun, and I had never had a single user error in all that time.

After that, I largely changed my tune on pretty much anyone shooting my guns or my reloads.

No sense in giving someone a BIG helping hand in hitting the Lawsuit Lottery.

So, you want to run with scissors, play in traffic, and eat expired roach coach sushi, that's one thing, but don't take offense at other people who choose to take a more... tempered... approach to things.
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Old January 18, 2013, 06:01 PM   #13
A pause for the COZ
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I had an opportunity to do the same. person was to provide all the components including the brass. I would reload them and he would cover my time.

After talking it out with a few people I trust. Came to the conclusion that it was just not worth the risk.
If any thing goes wrong even if it is not related to the ammo. Your getting sued.
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Old January 18, 2013, 06:32 PM   #14
buck460XVR
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Quote:
And remember that the Fed's greatest motivation to making you obtain a manufacturer's FFL for producing and selling ammo is not because ammo can be dangerous... it's because they want to TAX you for your efforts.
yep.

On another gun forum I frequent this same question came up and it was stated that like the carrying your own reloads for SD, while the web is full of gloom and doom for folks that do, there are no actual court cases to prove it. Some even claimed that unless one purposely loads cartridges that are dangerous to shoot or does not use REASONABLY SAFE reloading practices there's not a whole lot of neglect or intent to justify a lawsuit. Then one must be able to prove it was the ammo's fault and not the the fault of the gun or shooter. Me, I ain't no laywer and I have a hard enough time keeping ammo loaded for me and my immediate family. While I trust my reloading practices, I don't trust folks I don't know. I shoot my own ammo and let my friends and family shoot my ammo outta my guns. I let other folks take care of procuring their own.
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Old January 18, 2013, 07:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
I declined because I don't know this person at all.
+1. That would be exactly my response. I reload occasionally for my dad and uncle, but that is it. On top of that the loads are light/medium loads, no where near max and not off a progressive press either (no churn 'em out as fast as possible type loading for me... No thank you). When loading for someone else I am 'extra' paranoid. Even with relatives, I would never load 'max' loads in a caliber.

I have shot ammo in my guns from 'people I know'. You know "Here try some of mine. Lets see how it shoots in your gun". No problem. Again only from people I know and shoot with.... For example, a few months ago, one of the shooters here, had some .45 ACP loaded up that he was testing (his own 200g cast bullets) in his 1911. Wanted to see how they worked in my revolver. Okay with me . Later I returned a test target and comments about the load.
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Old January 18, 2013, 08:11 PM   #16
BigJimP
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From a pure liability standpoint -- its a really bad idea whether you knew them or not ....

Your Homeowner's Insurance - is where you get your liability insurance from ( and for most of us its either $100,000 or $300,000 ) and most homeowners insurance, in most states, will not cover you for losses of a "business nature" ....like selling things for a profit, or paying for your components, etc...

Its a bad idea....because you have no way to protect yourself...if the other guy screws up / and claims it was your reloads that caused his injury or damaged his gun ...( might cost you a few hundred bucks / might cost you a few thousand bucks...) ....why take the risk / especially since the only reason he is asking ...is because he wants to save money - and looking for an easy way out to get less expensive ammo ?

Educate them - help them understand the equipment / let them buy their own equipment - and you can help them get started. In the meantime, tell them to buy their ammo at the local gunshows...or whoever has the best prices..../ I don't even reload for close friends --- imagine how bad you would feel if a friend got hurt bad - or blew up a $3,000 gun that he loved ...and even if he didn't blame you ...how bad you'd feel...
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Old January 19, 2013, 08:40 AM   #17
BIGR
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It is not worth being sued over. An ol timer warned me years ago about reloading for other people, even your best friends. As he said there is no such thing as friends when something blows up and they want to sue you.
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Old January 19, 2013, 12:12 PM   #18
hunter52
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As long as they supply the components I have a couple shooting buddies that load pistol rounds on my progressives.
They asked a long time ago if I would load pistol rounds for them , the reply was no, I would like to remain friends, use my presses , but do it yourself.
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Old January 19, 2013, 12:48 PM   #19
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I have to agree, it is generally a bad idea. In the beginning, everything is cool, come on bro help me out, be a friend. Then if something doesn't go right, they turn on you in an instant. Well you could'a should'a...

I get this sort of thing in my work repairing furnaces all the time. People don't want to spend the money to fix it right and want to know if there's something I can do to cheaply help it to limp along. I try to oblige at times but tell them it may not last. It's cool, it's cool. If everything is ok, I'm a hero. If everything is not ok and it doesn't last then it's all, well don't you stand behind your work? lol.

Can you fix it for 20 dollars and guarantee it for life?
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Old January 19, 2013, 01:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Remember that...you can get sued by ANYONE, for ANYTHING.
Does their case have merit? Can they prove that it does?
And that's the crux, it can cost you a lot of time and money to prove they don't and then more to recover the cost if you can.

Life is full of risk and you can't say inside forever.

I mitigate mine where I can and recognize those that are not risk free (driving)

Some years back we were talking to folks about buying their house. They had a beautiful adopted daughter from overseas. Considering what can happen and what you can get with that kind of adaption it was a wonder for both the parents and her getting to live in a land of opportunity

She had a minor accident at day care and lost the end of a finger. Her parent comment was, "of course we are going to sue".

Rather than count their blessings and the joy of a wonderful child and accept it as the routine of life they sue. While I find it amazing its all too routine.
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Old January 19, 2013, 02:18 PM   #21
Dr. Strangelove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JD70
Yesterday one of my wife's friends who knows I reload asked her if I would sell them some of my 9mm reloads. I declined because I don't know this person at all. Plus I've never sold my reloads, and don't know the legal problems that might come out of it. Anyone here have this experience?

I wouldn't do it for someone I didn't know all. Now, friends of mine? Yeah, I have let them shoot my ammo or use my equipment, but I don't sell it. If a buddy needed 9mm and couldn't find any, I'd give him 50 or 100 rounds and not worry about it, maybe let him buy me a beer next time we see each other at the bar.

I understand the liabilities of it, but I let friends ride in my automobile, eat food I've cooked, etc. It's just not that big a deal to me, but I understand why some would not want to do it, it just depends on how risk adverse you are as an individual.
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Old January 20, 2013, 04:01 AM   #22
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I only let my family shoot my stuff and one very good friend. However with him, because I'm always a teach a man how to fish and feed him for life kind of guy, he pulls the ram a lot on the press. I've taught him the process and besides being broke as a joke, he'd be able to do it himself with a dillion press if he had one. He only shoots 1 centerfire caliber and thats 9mm. The rest of my family shoots everything I load. We enjoy it and I just am careful and hope nothing happens. I'm fairly sure even Winchester and the other big guys have had ammo blow up and guns blow up. There is danger involved in shooting. I just dont see much difference in my handloads and any commercial loads as far as family goes. Strangers, no way I'd never load for them.
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Old January 20, 2013, 08:32 AM   #23
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You're a good man, MIke Irwin, to have added that post with the pic of a reloading mistake...I've had a similar experience but with far less spectacular results...it only takes one moment's distraction to wreck a gun or worse. In my instance, a half grain over with Win 231 in 9mm blew a chunk out of the unsupported portion of the case, and I felt the Pachmeyer rubber grips bulge in my hand...no damage to the gun, a Colt Commander, but it re-oriented my loading practices. Like you, I saved the ruptured case, then framed it and it's mounted prominently on the wall above my handgun presses.

As to loading for someone else...I don't do it either...but I have allowed selected friends to use my equipment to load their own under my supervision. But even that can be probably be used against me by some SH lawyer bent on a windfall settlement. And too, my homeowner's ins. would probably not cover me.

It's a litigious society we live in...one that we built ourselves, since we've allowed the politicians and lawyers to make it so. And to those who claim anyone can sue but the case has to have merit...I'd say that while the court system cranks out an opinion, you'll go broke defending yourself...

Rod
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