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Old January 7, 2013, 10:36 AM   #1
MMV.30
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ROK Garands

Read somewhere that Korean Garands were to be allowed back in the states. Is there a set date yet or is it still up in the air? How does the distribution process work for these rifles? Do they go to the CMP first or do private companies including CMP bid for these rifles?
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Old January 7, 2013, 11:19 AM   #2
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South Korea is SELLING the guns back, not giving them back like most countries that we loaned rifles too.

They will not go back to the CMP. The CMP does not get direct turn ins. CMP guns have to go through the Army.

The SK Garands, if sold back, (and I don't know if they are or are not being allowed by the State Dept), they will go to the highest bidder, or jobber, not to the CMP, not to individuals.

I would be willing to bet you the SK Garand prices to the jobber, will be higher then the CMPs prices to us individuals.

Not to mention, every Garand (or other rifle) that is sold by the CMP is gone over by Armors before they are put on the shelves. If, for some reason one sneaks by with some sort of a problem, the CMP will make it right.

You'll never find better customer service then the CMP.

Give you an example. I went to Camp Perry to attend the CMP GSM Master Instructor course. The rifles we used were taken off the sales shelves.

I was paired up with a lady who had problems with the op rod binding up. A simple fix, but I brought it to the intention of the instructor, (Gary Anderson) who brought in the sales staff, then an armor. The discussion was not on how to fix the gun, (again a simple fix) but how the gun got put on the shelves in the first place.

My opinion is, if you want a Garand, buy one from the CMP, they vary in prices depending on what you want, but one thing you can be assured of, they WILL WORK. They will probably be cheaper, and a big plus in my opinion is:

All profits made from the CMP Sales goes to support shooting programs, mainly junior programs.

Even if they were the same price, or a tad higher, I'd rather spend the money that supports Junior Shooting Programs.

After all, juniors are the future of our shooting sports.

------------------------------------------------------------

Unrelated:

Take a kid shooting
Take a kid hunting
Take a kid fishing

Its the future of our sports, its the future of our kids and its the future of our country.
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Old January 7, 2013, 12:50 PM   #3
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Kraig pretty much nailed it. if they are allowed to import and I haven't personally read anything that says they will any time soon, they will be sold to importers, probably Century international arms or ATI as they are some of the biggest importers here. when they do, they will have to buy them low and sell them high, as CMP doesn't have to worry about buying low they are able to sell low and will still be the cheapest game in town. also, large importers do not inspect every rifle and seperate by grade so you are just as likely to get a rack or field grade(beat to hell but still shoots somewhat) for $1,000 as you are to get a service grade and I'd bet with them being loaner rifles, there probably wont be too many collectors grades in there so really, I see nothing that they bring to the table other than a lot less headache trying to acquire one.
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Old January 7, 2013, 02:02 PM   #4
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Well that stinks! I would have really enjoyed going to CMP and hand picking a correct or collector grade Garand from 1950-53. I knew it was too good to be true. So i guess the importers will be selling service grades for 2 grand with a giant "Century Arms" engraving on the receiver, right?
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Old January 7, 2013, 04:45 PM   #5
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more than likely, sometimes they are inconspicuous about where they put their mark, I have an MAS36 that I held and played with several times before I found their mark on the barrel, my Savage Enfield number 4 MK1* however has it marked in the left side of the receiver right where everyone looks for factory markings.
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:14 PM   #6
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@kraigwy Has any other nation sold us back rifles that we lent them? Or more importantly are there any countries left that have loaned rifles that could go through the CMP in the future? Preferably after the obama administration. Or was Greece the last one?
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Old January 7, 2013, 08:42 PM   #7
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@tahunua001 Out of the thousands of Garands you don't think there would be a large number of correct and collector grade rifles? I was told ROK army and marine units were just as disciplined as our troops when it came to maintaining weapons.
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Old January 7, 2013, 09:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Has any other nation sold us back rifles that we lent them? Or more importantly are there any countries left that have loaned rifles that could go through the CMP in the future? Preferably after the obama administration. Or was Greece the last one?
First, I want to keep this NON-POLITICAL, let me say this has nothing to do with Obama, or any other president except Teddy Roosevelt. The CMP and its father, the DCM are congressional programs pushed by Teddy Roosevelt in 1903-4. Other then Teddy Roosevelt no president that I am aware of has been very much involved except to sign what ever bill the program was attached to.

From the start the program was run by the Army under the Division of Civilian Marksmanship. The DCM program was funded by tax dollars, and like any other government program had to fight for funding every year. The DCM was constantly undermanned/under staffed.

In 1996 (Title 36 U. S. Code, 0701-40733) The program was change, not so much on its mission but it was turned over to Civilian Management, what we call the CMP or Civilian Marksmanship Program. The CMP does not receive any federal funds or tax dollars. They are totally funded by their sales.

They have much better staffing.

To give you an example, when I got my final leg points, it took nearly two years to get my Distinguished Rifle Badge under the DCM. Now days, you travel to a match, earn points, and they paperwork will beat you home.

Another example, I got my M1 through the DCM in 80/81. It was a once in a life time deal then, now I think you're limited to 12 per year.

Not blaming the DCM, they were understaffed but did an excellent job for 90 years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know of any other country that SOLD BACK guns we loaned them. Many countries besides Greece returned the borrowed weapons to the Army who turned them over to the DCM/CMP. The CMP is not directly involved in getting these guns from any other then the Army.
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Old January 8, 2013, 01:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Has any other nation sold us back rifles that we lent them? Or more importantly are there any countries left that have loaned rifles that could go through the CMP in the future? Preferably after the obama administration. Or was Greece the last one?
we have meddled in the affairs of many nations in our time.
the Enfield that I spoke of having century import marks was made right here in the USA by Savage arms and then 'loaned' to great Britain during WWII along with a large number of model 1917 rifles, some of which have also made it back and are distinguished by a red band that the brits painted around them to denote that they were chambered in 30-06 rather than 303 like the identical pattern 14 enfields that they were already using. some of these rifles have been sold back to the US but most were destroyed at the end of the war to avoid too many civilians getting their hands on military grade weapons(sound familiar?).

also during WWII large numbers of 1903 springfields were donated to french resistance and De Gaul's free french troops, if I'm not mistaken few if any were ever returned, through sale or otherwise. I've also heard internet rumors that China was given a large number of springfields but have not been able to verify.
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Out of the thousands of Garands you don't think there would be a large number of correct and collector grade rifles?
you may find one or two but the majority of them were used in combat and used extensively to those ends, they were dragged through rain forests, banged off trees and rocks, filled with mud, dirt, water and other filth and corrosive ammo was fired out of them. to keep them running parts would have to be replaced and the stocks obviously would show a great deal of wear and then there is the problem of the fact that they have been stored in a very humid environment for the last 60 years. if a collectors grade did make it out of there I would be very much impressed.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:02 AM   #10
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@kraigwy Being that CMP is self funded but depends on rifles from our government only, if the supply of Garands at CMP are dwindling(M1917,1903,1903A3 are pretty much non existent) dont you think it would be in the best interest of our military or government to try to sway the Korean government instead of selling them to importers to give or sell them back to the military? I'm not trying to be political here. Let's say it's not 2013 but 1983 and i'm asking this question. If the rifles go to importers, they get sold to anyone who can pass a criminal backround check. But if the rifles go through CMP, they are getting sold to an individual who has proved gun safety, marksmanhip as well as passing a criminal backround check. I would think it would be in this nations best interest to keep the CMP well stocked.
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Old January 8, 2013, 11:37 AM   #11
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@tahunua001 Yes i saw a M1917 with a red band on it at a show. I was told it was a Canadian air force issue. The rumor you say about the Chinese getting Springfields is probably true too. They most likely received them in the thirties before we entered the war.
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Old January 8, 2013, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Being that CMP is self funded but depends on rifles from our government only, if the supply of Garands at CMP are dwindling(M1917,1903,1903A3 are pretty much non existent) dont you think it would be in the best interest of our military or government to try to sway the Korean government instead of selling them to importers to give or sell them back to the military?
I see your point but the problem with that being that this program is for all intents and purposes a nonprofit organization and depends on the equivalent of donations in the form of rifles that the US government no longer has a use for. if the military buys those rifles from South Korea just to turn around and donate them, CMP will no longer be a self sufficient organization as it will be costing tax dollars in the form of re-appropriating obsolete weaponry to keep it functioning.
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Old January 8, 2013, 01:36 PM   #13
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MMV.30

I don't know that much about the Lend Lease of our weapons, but the CMP has no control, nor input. They only do what is called for in their Charter.

I was told, that if the CMP ran out of guns today, they would be able to keep funding their programs almost indefinitely without tax dollars.

As far as selling, giving, returning, that's a State Dept issue and based on how grateful the other country is. Greece and other European countries were, S. Korea isn't.

Way above my pay grade.
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Old January 8, 2013, 02:42 PM   #14
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My understanding is that we had given, not lent, the M1 Garands to the ROK which is why they are selling them back. Doesn't leave a great taste in my mouth but it is what it is. We lent the M1s to the Greeks, Dutch, and others, which is why they were sent back here and sold thru the CMP.
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Old January 8, 2013, 08:27 PM   #15
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Rifle were given lent or sold to foriegn countries. The ROK falls under either sold or given. They are theirs to do with as they wish.
There are plenty of Garands right now at CMP. If you want one get it now, why wait for the Korean Imports
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Old January 8, 2013, 09:06 PM   #16
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@Orlando CMP has no more correct or collector grade M1s and i don't want to pay $3500 for one. But from what i'm hearing, the ROK guns are probably rough to say the least.
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Old January 9, 2013, 12:19 AM   #17
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though they may not be correct or collectors grades, the ROKs would be sought after by collectors none the less. though many of us find the century import marks ugly and distracting from the otherwise unadulterated history that comes with these guns, an import marked M1 would be a sure sign that it was a ROK garand and has a special story all it's one. after a while many collectors cherish the stories that go with their guns as much as the guns themselves and not everyone can say that they know for a fact that their M1 served in 2 major conflicts, many ROKs can say that if the serial range is correct.
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Old January 9, 2013, 07:47 AM   #18
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There are plenty of guys on the CMP forum that would sell you a Correct Grade on the CMP forum, maybe even a Collector or two.
Just need to make a post on the Want To Buy section
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:39 AM   #19
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@ tahunua001 Oh definetly, even with import marks those rifles are special. I just wish they went through CMP so i could afford one.
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:41 AM   #20
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@Orlando I'll check into that, thanks.
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Old January 12, 2013, 12:30 PM   #21
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What caliber are the ROK M1s? I believe some governments converted them to 7.62mm NATO (.308 Winchester). Seems to me the US Navy had a supply of 7.62mm M1s.

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Old January 12, 2013, 12:31 PM   #22
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30.06
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:13 PM   #23
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I remembered seeing/reading somewhere of several sources of M1s converted to 7.62mm NATO.

I remember seeing many KATUSAs trying to handle M1 rifles without much success. The stocks were just too long for many of the small statue Koreans. When standing at "attention" some were just barely taller than their rifles.

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Old January 12, 2013, 09:21 PM   #24
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Bob,
the US Navy converted a number of M1s to 308 by putting in chamber adapters but they had a nasty habit of extracting with the spent casings so they started getting barrels already chambered in 308, CMP has these barreled actions for sale right now and they also offer a special grade garand with new stocks and converted with new criterion barrels in 308 and have magazine blocks to prevent accidental loading of 30-06 into them.
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ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
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Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
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Old January 14, 2013, 03:51 AM   #25
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Maybe The Largest supply -by far- of various surplus US military rifles etc is very tightly locked away in various buildings at a Naval facility.
There is no possible access by any commercial firms or the CMP. I won't name the state, but a few of you might know where it is.

As to how much they have of which types, my contact was not told, but the huge quantities could stretch back to WW1. He chatted in person with a guy who was on active duty there about two-three years ago. The guy indicated that the vast numbers are beyond what anybody could ever imagine.

The previous commander wanted to delay his retirement, being concerned that after he retires, a certain "element" of our civilian govt. might somehow learn about, and contemplate doing something really bad and stupid with the surplus "supplies".

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