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Old January 25, 2013, 11:59 AM   #201
lcpiper
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Sure, some folks kill with guns, guns are gone.

Ohh man, flash mobs are out of control and robbing stores, there goes freedom of assembly.

The list really can get longer very quickly.
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Old January 26, 2013, 07:15 PM   #202
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He and the rest of us would be a lot better served if he would consider criminal control.

Would anyone have a problem if law enforcement went door to door of people they knew should NOT legally own a gun and confiscated any they found?

That's criminal control, at least until they go out and get another.

Maybe try it in say Chicago first and see how it goes?
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Old January 26, 2013, 07:22 PM   #203
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Maybe try it in say Chicago first and see how it goes?
Can't. There'd be way too many dead cops.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:01 PM   #204
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It's still the hunters and skeet dudes vs. the nutsos

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2561677.html

Obama shoots skeet and notes that there are rural folks who like guns. They should be listened to. While they should, it is another attempt to split the 'shotgun' and 'deer' crowd from the loonies who talk RKBA.
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Old January 27, 2013, 07:10 PM   #205
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Glenn is absolutely right. Obama is a master at dividing and then conquering and that's what he's trying to do with gun control. Get some gun owners to agree with just a part of his (Fiensteins) plan and maybe the others will cave. We need to let him know all gun owners are against the proposals, plans, etc to further restrict gun ownership in either way.
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Old January 28, 2013, 12:38 AM   #206
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Glenn is absolutely right. Obama is a master at dividing and then conquering and that's what he's trying to do with gun control. Get some gun owners to agree with just a part of his (Fiensteins) plan and maybe the others will cave. We need to let him know all gun owners are against the proposals, plans, etc to further restrict gun ownership in either way.
+1

Unfortunately with the help of the media he's not just trying. He's doing it. And the guys who delude themselves that one day they're going to get invited to shoot skeet in a high dollar country club with a $12K double barrel support him.

I'm holding my breath right now. Can't you tell?

MB
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Old January 28, 2013, 10:48 AM   #207
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It is not just hunters being divided out. We have several EBR fans who favor allowing universal background checks in the hopes that would fend off a new AWB.

Aggravating...
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Old January 28, 2013, 01:56 PM   #208
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It is not just hunters being divided out. We have several EBR fans who favor allowing universal background checks in the hopes that would fend off a new AWB.
I spoke to a few guys at an IDPA match a couple of weeks ago. They don't mind universal background checks as long as they get to keep hi-cap magazines. As if a trade-off is going to get them anything.

The fatalism is just astonishing. More so is the fact that none of the grumblers had so much as emailed their reps. For all the hand-wringing, they're just sitting on their hands waiting to see what happens.

And that's the gun culture in a nutshell.
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Old January 28, 2013, 02:19 PM   #209
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The fatalism is just astonishing. More so is the fact that none of the grumblers had so much as emailed their reps. For all the hand-wringing, they're just sitting on their hands waiting to see what happens.
Agreed. As for me, I write my reps & senators about once a week and just signed up for www.popvox.com. I've seen it mentioned on this site before, and it looks like a good way to weigh in on bills.
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Old January 28, 2013, 05:20 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayster
He and the rest of us would be a lot better served if he would consider criminal control.

Would anyone have a problem if law enforcement went door to door of people they knew should NOT legally own a gun and confiscated any they found?

That's criminal control, at least until they go out and get another.
Umm... well... actually, I do have a problem with that.

If it were done as you describe -- searching people's houses wholesale, on the sole basis that they are prohibited persons, without probable cause to believe that they may have guns illegally in their possession, and without search warrants based on that probable cause -- it would be an egregious violation of their rights under the Fourth Amendment.

You know, the one that goes:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Prohibited persons have lost only their Second Amendment rights. Neither they nor the rest of us have lost our Fourth Amendment rights yet, but what you propose would be a good start.
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Old January 28, 2013, 05:23 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Spats McGee View Post
Agreed. As for me, I write my reps & senators about once a week and just signed up for www.popvox.com. I've seen it mentioned on this site before, and it looks like a good way to weigh in on bills.
Wow! Seriously. Thanks for the popvox link. I never knew about this.
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Old January 28, 2013, 05:43 PM   #212
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My pleasure, mrbatchelor. I've only used it a little, but it does seem pretty slick.
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Old January 28, 2013, 10:42 PM   #213
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I think I'm for background checks but maybe I misunderstand what that means . I don't think somebody that just got out of jail for beating there wife half to death should be able to buy or possess a firearm . What about the guy thats been convicted of armed robbery ? He should not be able to buy a gun either . I'm sure there are many other people that should not be armed .

How do you stop them from going to wal-mart or a gun show and buying a gun if you don't want background checks or is it cool the convicted rapist next door has a gun ?

Is the argument , because the can buy them on the street no one should be checked ? That does not work for me cus every law can be broken so why have them .
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Old January 28, 2013, 10:58 PM   #214
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The "Universal" argument is that you cannot sell Fred, your well known shooting buddy at the gun range one of your rifles without checking his status.

Now, truth be told it also means you can't sell Teddy, who answered your Craig's List ad, a gun either. But you don't really know Teddy.

In all seriousness, I'm not going to sell anything to someone I don't know reasonably well anyway. And for that matter neither is any one lose I know.

But a stolen goods fence is going to sell it to whoever will give him cash for it.

So the reality is that this will have exactly zero effect on illegal gun traffic, or at lest minimal effect. But it will provide the "original hooks" for a nation wide registration system.

As I mentioned earlier, anyone who really still believes that their Social Security number isn't an ID number is a moron. But in the beginning it was loudly proclaimed that it wasn't and couldn't ever be used as a national identification system. So what do you put on your 4473 and your 1040? This very same "non-identification" number.
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Old January 29, 2013, 04:36 AM   #215
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Jayster
Going door to door in Chicago confiscating guns HAS been done IN CHICAGO.

Years ago, maybe 10years? the Chicago PD went with the BATF when they did a firearms dealer inspection. They took down the info of people with a Chicago address buying a handgun.

Chicago at that time had a closed registration so you could not own a handgun in Chicago that had not been registered many years in the past.

They went down the list knocking on doors saying "give it up or go to jail". What I heard is most people rolled over when confronted. Because a few did not, the practice came to light during court proceeding.
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:00 AM   #216
lcpiper
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Is the argument , because the can buy them on the street no one should be checked ? That does not work for me cus every law can be broken so why have them .
This is a completely wrong headed argument.

Obviously someone thinks that laws are a supposed to be a mechanism to "prevent" crimes. This is simply unrealistic.

Laws serve two functions, they guide the law-abiding person so he does not break the law. And they serve as justification to punish those who do break the law.

But in and of themselves laws can not prevent a criminal act, if they did, there would be no crime
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Old January 29, 2013, 11:59 AM   #217
Glenn E. Meyer
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...where/?hpid=z4

The points made are that the votes don't exist, memory fades, Biden sees the political risk, etc.

Background checks are likely - I said a bit ago that what we would see are NICS for private sales at guns shows and tuning up the ajudication reports. Still feel that way.

I would hope if that is the legislative outcome, that some positive gun things be introduced. I have suggested (to the gun gods) that if NICS becomes universal then it should override state provisions for waiting periods and bans on weapons type like MA or NY or CA, etc. If NICS is good enough in TX to buy an AR, it should be good enough for Cuomo.

The thing to really worry about is mag bans but I don't see them. But if we get NICS, let's override those nervous nellies of New York, for instance.
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Old January 29, 2013, 12:11 PM   #218
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But in and of themselves laws can not prevent a criminal act, if they did, there would be no crime
Yep ^^^^ so no background checks for anybody , got it


Quote:
Laws serve two functions, they guide the law-abiding person so he does not break the law.
This does not make sense to me . You are creating a restriction to help guide people from violating that restriction ? Why have the restriction then

Quote:
they serve as justification to punish those who do break the law.
I believe laws are in place to prevent crime and the above ^^^^


Does anybody have an answer to how to keep Teddy from getting a gun while still being able to sell Fred one . Who's to say Fred is cool ? Me cus I hang out with him

I believe the Brady act or some part of the Brady bill requires the destruction of background info with in 24hrs . This is what must stay in place if background checks for all gun purchases is put in place . I would bet Feinsteins new bill changes that and the records would now be kept on file . That would be a deal breaker for me . It's my understanding now that what gun you buy is not even known just that it's a long gun or hand gun . The same info is sent if you buy a 10/22 or a AR15 no distinction just that you are buying a long gun .
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Old January 29, 2013, 12:19 PM   #219
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I would hope if that is the legislative outcome, that some positive gun things be introduced. I have suggested (to the gun gods) that if NICS becomes universal then it should override state provisions for waiting periods and bans on weapons type like MA or NY or CA, etc. If NICS is good enough in TX to buy an AR, it should be good enough for Cuomo.
You would think but the states will likely try to come up with another method to slow roll purchases.

Cuomo wants confiscation so it really does not matter with him.
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Old January 29, 2013, 01:05 PM   #220
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One of the issues I am seeing more so, as things slowly move along there is a growing political divide on both sides...

There has always been a split along pro and anti firearm sides, but...

This time around there is alot more folks, such as many Sheriff's around the country speaking out against any AWB or mag restrictions. I've seen a couple of Police Chief's speak out against the AWB and mag restrictions too, but whats telling, at least to me, are those Chiefs who repeatedly decline to comment now. These Chiefs know that it has become a pink slip issue if they speak about supporting either side.

I'm seeing more grass roots support for firearm freedoms instead of restrictions too. Its easier today to voice support for or against legislation with email. Even going as far as what Ruger has done to make it easy for folks to contact their elected congress critters.

With the "memory fades" statement that Glenn noted above, politicians also usually understand that others have a "long memory"...Who has a long memory? Those whose rights have been restricted or affected in a negative fashion.

As to NICS being opened up? I dont see it for the ordinary folks who dont hold an FFL. I could honestly see there be some regulation that certain person to person sales be subject to NICS check, but that would also bring in the issue of requiring a FFL to do the transfer, since they alreay have NICS access. I could see the possibility of granting NICS access to 03 FFL's, though it may conflict on the private collection vs business aspect.

ETA:

Reason why I dont see NICS being opened up is that with NICS being connected to the FFL system, there is already a system in place to ensure compliance, record keeping, and to spot inconsistancies, which is the audit process that the ATF does to FFL's. If NICS were opened up to everyone, there would not be that same level of compliance, and record keeping, and no way to ensure it.

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Old January 29, 2013, 01:22 PM   #221
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As to NICS being opened up? I dont see it for the ordinary folks who dont hold an FFL. I could honestly see there be some regulation that certain person to person sales be subject to NICS check, but that would also bring in the issue of requiring a FFL to do the transfer, since they alreay have NICS access.
That appears to be the idea. The day after the Executive Order on the matter, dealers got a letter from the ATF telling us to encourage private sellers to bring guns in for NICS checks.

Like we need that extra workload. Right now, the system is overburdened and slow. Add every private sale, and it will be crippled.
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Old January 29, 2013, 02:06 PM   #222
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Like we need that extra workload. Right now, the system is overburdened and slow. Add every private sale, and it will be crippled.
Why can't there be a secure server to long on to and simply get the information with the proper permissions? (obviously not today)

It would seem a bit more efficient and 21st Century.
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Old January 29, 2013, 02:28 PM   #223
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Why can't there be a secure server to long on to and simply get the information with the proper permissions?
Who gets permission, and who grants it? As others have mentioned, the more data out there, the more the chance of it being compromised.

Look at the front of a 4473. That's a one-page identiy-theft kit if it gets in the wrong hands.

All this for a system rife with erroneous and incomplete data. No thanks.
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Old January 29, 2013, 02:31 PM   #224
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Who gets permission, and who grants it?
The same people who do it now but no waiting on the phone.
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That's a one-page identiy-theft kit if it gets in the wrong hands.

All this for a system rife with erroneous and incomplete data. No thanks.
Have there been cases of stolen identity traced back to a 4473?
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Old January 29, 2013, 02:39 PM   #225
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The same people who do it now but no waiting on the phone.
The difference is that on the phone, a human operator has verified that I'm an FFL, and they're monitoring the entire transaction. The operator runs the actual check, not me. Or Joe Blow, whose buddy who used to work at a gun shop who gave him the password.

Quote:
Have there been cases of stolen identity traced back to a 4473?
Not that I know of, but the possibility is there. My point is that the system is already intrusive and I know enough about computer security to know how unsecure most data is. I'd want very strict controls on who has access to that stuff.

On an related note, Wayne LaPierre will be speaking to the Senate Judiciary Committee tomorrow. I'll post more as it comes out.
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