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Old January 16, 2013, 04:17 PM   #101
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:17 PM   #102
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I just got it, too. You're right. It suggests that FFL's encourage folks to go through them rather than transferring the guns between individuals.
Did they offer any guidance on pricing? I see some shops around Atlanta charging $45.00 for a transfer I suspect they would charge just as much for this service.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:21 PM   #103
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These 23 executive orders that were just signed. They are not suggestions, they are Executive Orders and go into force at the time stated in the order with the full effect of law. The language we have seen is only a "description" of these orders and not the actual language.

I will give an example, a poster above wrote ;
Quote:
I also don't see any problem with making a NICS check available to private parties if performed by an FFL or LEO agency, no transfer information is recorded, and the process is voluntary and provided for a small fee (under $5).
Well the process will not be voluntary, it IS mandatory as of the date the signed executive order goes into effect. The wording of these snippets is not the wording of the actual executive order. I have read Executive Orders pertaining to safeguarding classified information and they are not vague, they are specific and fully encompass the topic of the order.

Furthermore there is nothing we have seen that doesn't say that by executive order these documents will not now be retained as record. Laws are changed and all that executive order does is "legislate" Presidential Power , frequently until congress can formally make it official. But that doesn't mean that if congress doesn't pass something that these Executive Orders do not remain in effect. As of today they are Law.

Furthermore, the letter that you guys got that explain how the shops, FFL holders, can handle private transfers. That isn't the executive Order either, it's just what they call it, a letter telling them how to proceed for now.

I do not for one instant believe the President of the US signed an Executive Order that says "I would really be happy if you guys do this for us, but if you don't want to, that's fine. No Biggie"
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:21 PM   #104
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I see some shops around Atlanta charging $45.00 for a transfer I suspect they would charge just as much for this service.
It's nearly the same workload, and the same exposure to liability. So, yeah, I could see that.

Frankly, transfers between individuals are frequently a logistical hassle and a drain on payroll. I would not be surprised to see dealers go up on transfer costs across the board if such a measure went into effect.

That said, I really doubt this will happen.
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Old January 16, 2013, 04:25 PM   #105
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Just wanted to share an email I got from the NAGR,



Just moments ago, President Obama and his anti-gun pals unveiled their plans to GUT our Second Amendment rights.

The list of new schemes goes on seemingly forever, but the most outrageous are exactly what I’ve been fearing . . .

The gun-grabbers are going for broke, including:
*** RAMMING into law the new Feinstein Gun Ban, and banning magazines that hold more than 10 rounds.

Far more draconian than the earlier ban, the new Feinstein Gun Ban and the Magazine Ban demonizes guns for looking “scary” and targets rifles, shotguns and even handguns.

These new bans are NOT likely to include grandfather clauses, and they might even go for out-right confiscation.
*** FORCING through Congress a new national gun registration scheme under the guise of “background checks.”

There’s simply no way to enforce a ban on private transfers without government bureaucrats knowing exactly who owns what weapons.
*** A new “mental health” denial system using “ObamaCare’s” nationalized healthcare system to begin snooping on gun owners.

One Surgeon General estimated 46.4% of Americans will have mental health issues at some point in their lives!
So make no mistake, this is designed EXPLICITLY to allow the federal government to strip ANY law-abiding citizen they want -- including military veterans -- of their Second Amendment rights on a whim.

In fact, the so-called “mental health” and the “background check” national gun registration system may be where this fight is headed . . .

More than even an outright ban on certain types of firearms, nothing gets anti-gun activists like Sarah Brady more excited than the ability to demonize certain gun features and register and trace guns and gun owners.

That’s because she and her antigun pals -- like New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg -- understand these are the first steps toward outright gun confiscation in America.

They’re putting up smoke and mirrors to throw American citizens off track.

But registration, bans and ultimately confiscation are really what President Obama’s “mental health” initiative and his so-called “background check” national gun registration schemes are all about.

So if you want to protect your gun rights, you and I are going to have to be ready for anything.

Please TAKE ACTION NOW and call your Congressman and Senators at 202-224-3121 and demand they oppose Obama’s gun control agenda at every opportunity.

That’s 202-224-3121.

These fights are going to move FAST, I’m afraid. Very fast.

Please consider chipping in $10 or $20 today to help NAGR mobilize millions of gun owners nationwide against Obama’s gun control agenda.

I’m committed to standing up and defeating these schemes. I’m counting on you to stand with me.

For Freedom,

Dudley Brown
Executive Vice President
P.S. Just moments ago, President Obama and his anti-gun pals unveiled their plans to GUT our Second Amendment rights.

I’m committed to standing up and defeating these schemes, but I’m counting on you to stand with me.

Won’t you please chip in $10 or $20 to help the National Association for Gun Rights FIGHT BACK?
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Old January 16, 2013, 05:20 PM   #106
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17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
For mental health care providers - the reporting suggestions are tremendous violations of confidentiality. The NYS new law is a horror in that regard.

None of these were run by mental health professionals. There are already some who have spoken up about how such will interfere with therapeutic interventions.
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Old January 16, 2013, 05:30 PM   #107
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Glenn, the spectre that action raises is truly disturbing, isn't it, plus the AG being told to find new classes of prohibited persons. Anyone ever treated for any mental illness whatsoever would be an easy one, it's "for the children",. doncha know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apom
I'll take required background checks over lower capacity magazines everyday. I have no criminal record so it will not affect me at all. I'm assuming some people here must have one as they are so against being screened. Maybe they shouldn't own guns anyway.
Your ego slipped, and your leftism is showing.
The mere fact that I have nothing to hide gives no one the right to look.
Clear enough?
Question for everyone else - do you think they will use that EO to remove the exception for CCW permits from the phoned in background checks?
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Old January 16, 2013, 05:40 PM   #108
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Question for everyone else - do you think they will use that EO to remove the exception for CCW permits from the phoned in background checks?
I don't think it would be EO'd since that would change the law not it's enforcement. But I do wonder if they get some sort of enhanced/expanded background check legislation through if it would address that.
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Old January 16, 2013, 05:44 PM   #109
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Eliminate restrictions that force the ATF to authorize importation of dangerous weapons simply because of their age: ATF is required to authorize the importation of certain “curio or relic” firearms, and outdated regulations include all firearms manufactured more than 50 years ago in the definition of “curio or relic.” But today, firearms manufactured more than 50 years ago include large numbers of semiautomatic military-surplus rifles, some of which are easily convertible into machine guns or otherwise appealing for use in crime. Congress should get rid of restrictions that prevent ATF from changing this definition, enabling ATF to ensure that firearms imported as curios or relics are actually of interest as collectibles, rather than letting these rules be used as a way to acquire fully functional and powerful military weapons


Fully automatic converted 50 year old curio and relic firearms are used in crime? Name one, in the whole country, since the curio and relic lic began.
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:10 PM   #110
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The letter just sent out states

Quote:
FFL facilitations of private firearms transfers will also help law enforcement's ability to trace firearms if they are later recovered at a crime
How does it help to trace firearms if all records are destroyed after 24hr ?

If the FFL has to keep the records for 10 years already . How does this help ?

Does lets say colt have a record of what store got what firearms and the government just ask them what FFL dealer they sold the gun to ? The gov then just goes to that FFL dealer and checks there records ?

That may work with brand new guns but as soon as a used gun is sold PP though a FFL they will no longer be able to trace it , especially if originally bought before 2013 . Yes ?
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:15 PM   #111
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17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
Glenn Commented:
Quote:
For mental health care providers - the reporting suggestions are tremendous violations of confidentiality. The NYS new law is a horror in that regard.

None of these were run by mental health professionals. There are already some who have spoken up about how such will interfere with therapeutic interventions.
Please keep track of this one especially.

I suspect there are some doctors who would report you if you confided to them you liked to kill deer, ducks or geese.
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:18 PM   #112
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That may work with brand new guns but as soon as a used gun is sold PP though a FFL they will no longer be able to trace it , especially if originally bought before 2013 .
If it goes through an FFL there's a record. In essence, just think about the rules(for PPT) in CA and apply them nationally.
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:27 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Quote:
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
For mental health care providers - the reporting suggestions are tremendous violations of confidentiality. The NYS new law is a horror in that regard.

None of these were run by mental health professionals. There are already some who have spoken up about how such will interfere with therapeutic interventions.
Yes, the NY law is awful on this. Violations of confidentiality will be followed by violations of the 2nd, and likely, the 4th and 5th amendments -- how does confiscation of the property of people who aren't suspected of a crime, without any kind of due process, not amount to unreasonable seizure and/or taking of property without compensation?

From the New York Times:
New York State legislators on Tuesday passed a gun bill that would require therapists to report to the authorities any client thought to be “likely to engage in” violent behavior; under the law, the police would confiscate any weapons the person had.
And if they're found to have no weapons, they'll still be placed on a state-kept list of prohibited persons...

"Likely to engage in violent behavior" is an order of magnitude beyond "making credible threats of violence" as a reporting standard.

Ugh.
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:31 PM   #114
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Likely to engage in violent behavior
I guess that includes all police and military for starters. Most of them are likely to engage in violent behavior at some point. Won't you too if you were say defending your family?
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:37 PM   #115
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Or myself, for that matter.
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Old January 16, 2013, 06:48 PM   #116
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Fully automatic converted 50 year old curio and relic firearms are used in crime? Name one, in the whole country, since the curio and relic lic began.
No but they can become a threat to government.
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Old January 16, 2013, 07:46 PM   #117
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Well the process will not be voluntary, it IS mandatory as of the date the signed executive order goes into effect. The wording of these snippets is not the wording of the actual executive order. I have read Executive Orders pertaining to safeguarding classified information and they are not vague, they are specific and fully encompass the topic of the order.
Someone give us a site that has the language that says it is mandatory. I don't see that in the texts on line. The issue whether there is a mandatory private sale NICS as compared to setting up something private citizens must use.

If that is true - it isn't in the White House PDF.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:09 PM   #118
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I just skimmed this thread. I'm not seeing any executive order that actually makes new "law" with regard to private sales or magazine capacities, etc. From everything I'm reading online, they appear to be "suggestions" "challenges" "pushes", etc. Did he or did he not issue executive orders that ACTUALLY prohibit certain acts? If so, point me to the language. Thanks.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:19 PM   #119
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I would like to see them as well.
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Old January 16, 2013, 08:47 PM   #120
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If it goes through an FFL there's a record. In essence, just think about the rules(for PPT) in CA and apply them nationally.
Yea I get that . my point was/is . If there is no paper work on the gun now i.e. you bought it at a gun show PP . you then sell it through a FFL dealer . That same gun is later found at a crime seen , how do the cops know where to look for paper work . They would have no idea what gun store did the transfer . So yes there is paper work to follow but nobody knows where that paper work starts . That is if they really destroy the info after the background check .

I think there is more to this back ground check thing then meets the eye . I was thinking of it more like the no fly list . if your name is on the list you do not get to buy a gun . Not like a list of every firearm we all own . If there is data saved somewhere that has all the info of every americans personal life from how many tickets you've got to every hospital visits . I would have a huge problem with that .

Does anybody know how the NICS works in detail and how they come to have said info that would disqualify you from owning a gun .
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:09 PM   #121
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Here, again, is the text of the White House press release, all 21 pages of it.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...mid=tw-nytimes

The EOs are summarized, but there's little if anything in them that affects actual "gun control" in a substantive way, as far as I can see. It's all "direct the AG to review," "send a letter to FFLs," etc. A couple of them involve presidential memoranda requiring various federal agencies to do things that, as far as I can see, they already have the power to do.

An executive order calling for a "national dialog... on mental health" doesn't carry quite the same oomph as one authorizing the extrajudicial murder of American citizens, for example.

The rest is basically a wish list of laws he'd like Congress to pass. I suppose some are more likely to pass than others, but this is a president whose basic negotiating tactic is the "preemptive concession." If it were LBJ, I'd be worried -- Obama, not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal god
Does anybody know how the NICS works in detail and how they come to have said info that would disqualify you from owning a gun .
"In detail," is it? Alrighty then.

You'll find all the details here, in a document published by the ATF -- it's a mere 243 pages long.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:15 PM   #122
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In some circles or school districts, a resource officer is a uniformed, armed deputy...
They are in South Carolina. Atleast at my daughters middle school.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:17 PM   #123
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I was thinking of it more like the no fly list
Not to be snarky, but consider how well that has worked out.

As it stands, anyone here could be on the list. We won't know until they stop us at the airport. There's no due process, no prior notice, and the appeal process puts the burden of proof on you. No thanks.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:19 PM   #124
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they are Executive Orders and go into force at the time stated in the order with the full effect of law.
No quite. They are not codified into Law as passed by Congress, and then subject to interpretation by the Supreme Court.

They are directives to the Executive Branch of government, and as already said, the States are lining up suggesting they are under no obligation to enforce them.

Somebody is setting up some major legal contests for future review when the Executive Branch oversteps itself. It's happened before, and POTUS has lost in court. Precedence exists.

Moving to the EO concerning the revoking of provisions in the HIPPA: if the law says "you cannot communicate the patient's information and status," but the President is ORDERING those who are subject to his will to do so, where exactly is the line? If your doctor isn't on the government payroll, his voluntary compliance is all there is - and your continued patronage also on the line.

Nobody wants to be the one who knew before hand, but the real difficulty is exactly that - how does this all work out in a legal environment that prohibits prior restraint? Let's be clear about that - can YOU be arrested because someone thinks you might do something?

One unintended consequence is that anyone who does have issues with PTSD, trauma, or whatever, now has a legitimate fear of treatment if the health authorities want to restrict their firearms access - even if their only justification is politics. It's already a major issue in the Army and goes straight to the other article in my local paper - the suicide rate is still rising and no end in sight.

I appreciate everyone who chimed in on the number and level of clearances they hold. That goes to another point completely left out of the entire conversation - prior service. I, like millions of men and women since I turned 18, have all been trained to handle fully automatic weapons, and plenty of them. Whether a three year tour or 35, you don't get thru basic training for ANY job in the Armed Forces if you can't handle a M16 and high capacity magazines. None of the EO's, the posturing Senators, and the media make any effort to recognize that a substantial part of the public are quite capable of handling fully automatic weapons - fully trained and educated by the very people who are trying to limit their rights. And who are surrounded by them almost every working minute of their day.

We are all in this together, and the opposition understands all to clearly that as long as we own firearms and hold our forefathers caution against tyranny, they can never rule us.

Let's not ignore the other players on the field - there are three branches of Government. The courts are forcing a showdown on carry in Illinois and Chicago, Congress is already uncooperative with the President, and the Executive Branch itself knows the clock is ticking - only 47 months left. They are facing a sea change of new administrative heads, all of who, like the BATF director, need confirmation. There is also the income tax, Obamacare, and no doubt, future world political events that will be challenging. One President doesn't get unlimited power - and in his second term, the gloves are off. It's not going to be a cakewalk like the first term. That is very much part of American politics.
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Old January 16, 2013, 09:20 PM   #125
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As it stands, anyone here could be on the list. We won't know until they stop us at the airport. There's no due process, no prior notice, and the appeal process puts the burden of proof on you. No thanks.
Or you could just be someone with the same or similar name as someone. No more guns for you.
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